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Should a quarterback play right away?

Should this guy be starting right now?

More photos » by Richard Drew - AP

Should this guy be starting right now?

With a first round draft pick invested in Josh Freeman, and a hold over currently manning the helm, a lot of people are clamoring for Freeman to come in and be the quarterback now.  They argue that if he's gonna take his lumps, he might as well do it now, particularly on a team not slated to win many games.  This way, he's going close to full speed next year and we won't have any transition issues.

Those opposed to Freeman (or any rookie QB) starting take the view point that a quarterback needs time to mature, learn the speed of the game, and develop as a player before they hit the field.  Why send him out there to get demolished when we know he still has some learning to do?

So who's right? Take a look inside at who these quarterbacks are and how they fared.

Star-divide

I pulled all the first round quarterbacks from 1995 to present day in order to determine how quarterbacks have done depending on when they start.  I did not use quarterbacks from the 2008 or 2009 draft as we have no substantial data on them yet.  I also excluded any quarterback who played for less than 3 years at the NFL level.  This was done in an attempt to weed out those who simply didn't belong.  The reason for only first rounders?  I would imagine they are the only ones that are possibly slated to start day 1 and that appears to be the argument with Freeman.

 

Let me lay down some parameters.  I included anyone who played or started more than 8 games in their rookie year as a first year starter.  More than half a year would qualify you as the guy in my opinion.  I looked at quarterback rating, as this encompasses yards, completion percentage, TD's and picks. 

First year starters

You'll recognize some of these names. Kerry Collins, Ryan Leaf, Peyton Manning, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Kyle Boller, Byron Leftwich, Ben Roethlisberger, Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Vince Young.  Those are all the guys that were drafted in the first round from 1995  through 2007 that started 8 or more games in their rookie season. 

Here's where it gets tough.  Trying to find a way to quantify different players from different years in different schemes.  I ended up looking at QB rating as it encompasses all general stats.  This was done to avoid comparing yardage (some teams throw more than others) and advanced stats aren't available far enough back. I used the first 5 years of data to see if there was any progress or baseline in terms of each quarterback.

In their respective rookie years, only one quarterback (Ben Roethlisberger) put up a QB rating of over 74.  Every other QB fell below that mark.  Here's a look at their first five years of QB Ratings.

 

Player 1st QBR 2nd QBR 3rd QBR 4th QBR 5th QBR Notes
Vince Young 66.7 71.1 64.5 - - Non starter year 3
Matt Leinart 74 61.9 80.2 59 - Non starter in year 3
Alex Smith 40.8 74.8 57.2 - - Non starter in year 4
Ben R. 98.1 98.6 75.4 104.1 80.1 Still starting
Byron Leftwich 73 82.2 89.3 79 59.5 journeyman, starting now
Kyle Boller 62.4 70.9 71.8 104 75.2 non starter
David Carr 62.8 69.5 83.5 77.2 82.1 non starter
Joey Harrington 59.9 63.9 77.5 72 38.2 non starter
Tim Couch 73.2 77.3 76.1 76.8 77.6 non starter
Peyton Manning 71.2 90.7 94.7 84.1 88.8 No notes needed
Ryan Leaf 39 - 56.2 57.7 - out of football
Kerry Collins 61.9 79.4 55.7 70.8 54.5 hovered around high 70's

I did my best to include some notes on where each guy is now.  You can see that a lot of these guys are out of football or not starting anymore.  Outside of Manning and Roethlisberger, there aren't too many success stories here.  Most of the guys hovered around the low 70's for most their career (Young, Leinart, Smith, Boller, Carr, Harrington, Couch etc).  The spikes in their QB rating are the years they came in for mop up duty. 

There are a few guys here who made it.  Manning, Collins and Roethlisberger stick out.  How did the other group do?

Non First Year Starters

These guys are all those who started 7 games or less their rookie year.  When you look at the numbers, note that their rookie year is truly their 1st year in the league, not their first year as full time starter. I looked at their 2nd QBR vs the other groups 1s QBR as it was their first year starting.

 

Player 1st QBR 2nd QBR 3rd QBR 4th QBR 5th QBR Notes
Jamarcus Russell 55.9 77.1 46.6 - - Starting for Oakland
Brady Quinn 56.8 66.6 66.9 - - Starting for Cleveland
Aaron Rodgers 39.8 48.2 106 93.8 87 Starter
Jason Campbell 0 76.5 77.6 84.3 89 Starter
Phillip Rivers 110.59 50.4 92 82.4 105.5 Starter
J.P. Losman 39.2 64.9 84.9 76.9 62.3 Out of football
Carson Palmer 0 77.3 101.1 93.9 86.7 Starter
Rex Grossman 74.8 67.9 59.7 73.9 66.4 Back up
Patrick Ramsey 71.8 75.8 74.8 95.2 39.6 Out of football
Michael Vick 62.7 81.6 69 78.1 73.1 No comment
Chad Pennington 79.6 104.2 82.9 91 70.9 Starter, for now
Akili Smith 55.6 52.8 73.4 34.5 0 Out of football
Daunte Culpepper 98 83.3 75.3 96.4 110.9 Now a journeyman back up
Jay Cutler 88.5 88.1 86 71.5 - Starter
Eli Manning 55.4 75.9 77 73.9 86.4 Starter
Donovan McNabb 60.1 77.8 84.3 86 79.6 Starter
Steve McNair 81.7 90.6 70.4 80.1 78.6 Was a starter

It's still too early to tell on some of these guys like Russell and Quinn, but they have secured the starting jobs for now.  Whether or not they improve is up in the air.  There are several success stories here.  Rodgers, Campbell, Rivers, Palmer, Pennington, Manning, McNabb.  Their second year (first year starting) ratings aren't stellar, but are a bit higher than the other group.  They also see higher numbers in future years.  Their 3rd year QBR (2nd year starting) seems to be higher than the other groups 2nd QBR (2nd year starting).

What type of conclusion can we draw from this?  I'm not really sure.  I think the argument is there to sit a player early.  But for every Ryan Leaf, there's a Peyton Manning (the starter group) and for every Phillip Rivers, there's a Patrick Ramsey (non-starter group). 

I personally see a few more starters currently in the second group, but it should be noted that the first group had players that were older.  I realize that some guys aren't listed (guys like Aikman or Brady) but they are either out of the league due to age or weren't drafted in the first round.

Ultimately, I'm not sure you can draw any real conclusions.  The variables are too many to count.  The ones that are most notable are you can't quantify system, scheme run, surrounding personnel, franchise situation, coaching etc.  Guys taken towards the top of the first round typically go to teams that are awful.  I don't think there is any way to say that certain guys (Grossman, Manning, Leaf etc) would have been as bad/good had they gone to another team.  Would Roethlisberger have been that good had he gone to the Lions, to the 49ers, or some other putrid mess of a team at that point? 

Tough to quantify, but I think this data is at least interesting enough to post and discuss.  So drop your thoughts below.  Based on what you see above, does it warrant starting Freeman now, or waiting?

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Setting up for a FAIL

Remember back this spring when the Bucs signed Leftwich and everyoen thought that meant no Freeman (and there was rejoicing at the fact in some circles)? And how Morris said, after Freeman’s selection that the Leftwich signing was a misdirection attempt? That the Bucs were locked in with Freeman for a while.

It turns out Byron was the mentor designate for a while.

And that tells me that Morris (or Dominik, or whoever thought this was a wise idea) immediately handcruffed Freeman.

Why do I suggest Freeman got handcuffed by this move? Watching the last two games, I’ve watched Leftwich again and again on field and there is one thing wrong that stands out with him every time out — his body language. Sounds ridiiculous, I know.. But everything isn’t black-and-white, do-or-don’t, good-or-not. Leftwich has skill and talent… But every time I see him on field it’s like a big negative sign walking around on field. It feels like he doesn’t want to be there when I watch him.

Is that the kind of tutelage you want for a #1 draft pick?

Of course there’s also the financial stuff that reeks for the Bucs right now — nto spending on the team — and that further makes me feel bad for Josh Freeman in all this. when he gets thrown to the wolves – not if – he’s much more likely to sink than swim…

Personally I’d rather see Johnson get reps under center than Josh Freeman right now… But I’m hesistent with that because it can be categorized in the classic Buc fan “love the 3rd string QB” mentality that haunts the team every pre-season. There was an urgency and a leadership when I saw him on field… “Lets get it done”

But I digress. The choice is between mopey and fresh, while the team reels in discord.

To strive, to seek, to find, and to forever keep it Raw. Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Sep 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't decide if I like the Leftwich handcuff or not.

It’s saving Freeman from getting killed right now and by the time he takes over (either midd 2009 or beginning of 2010) there might be some playmakers (old or new), the system won’t be as new which should mean there are less breakdowns, and he will have had a chance to adjust on the sideline.

My opinion is that he (Freeman) should sit. Leftwich, an NFL quarterback who knows the game, is getting hit hard. Why subject the future (?) to that.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I used the wrong term

My use of the word “handcuffs” wasn’t trying to suggest that the Bucs are delaying Freeman (which they should — and for as long as possible). My use was meant to be holding Freeman back regarding development. Not the best leader to look up to, not the best on-field role model if he’s running around as a negative-symbol and not a point to rally around.

A QB should be a source to rally around, even some of the bad ones bring the right attitude and right atmosphere — though their skills limit what they can do. Leftwich has the skills, but he’s got the wrong demeanor. I don’t want a franchise QB learning from that.

They would have been better off keeping Luke. Team would still likely suck but the QB isn’t moping under center.

To strive, to seek, to find, and to forever keep it Raw. Raw Charge.

by John Fontana on Sep 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, there's always a chance

but each QB has so many variables, it’s impossible to measure. What system did they run in college, what are they running in the NFL, weather, how is their OL, how are his WR’s etc.

Roethlisberger (opinion time) wouldn’t have fared so well in a pass happy offense right out of college. He went to a defensive team that ran the ball. He was asked to throw 15-20 times, thats it. Would he have been as successful if he had gone to the Rams or any pass happy team?

Some guys have the mettle to get in right away and weather the storm. Some are more NFL ready, others are projects, like Freeman. I think it would kill his confidence and progrsesion if he went out there, got hit all day, stared down WR’s and threw picks. The only thing he would learn is how to tackle a defender.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of it has to do with the coaches perception

of where the Quarterback actually is in his development. Morris has made several comments that he just doesn’t think Freeman is ready. Many coaches have invested their reputation on a first round quarterback that have a false perception of where there quarterback is, and whose fault his mistakes are.

"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"

by UNFNOLE on Sep 24, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if Freeman

would have stayed for his senior year if he still would have been a first round pick.

by LeeCaz on Sep 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a Chance

Sanchez would have struggled to go in the first 32 in 2010 draft.

by BucsinTO on Sep 24, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stafford wouldn't have been a top quarterback in next years draft

Bradford,Snead,McCoy,Tebow,Reesing just to name a few.

by buccanator on Sep 25, 2009 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're on drugs if you think Reesing is an NFL prototype and will go early

If NFL scouts have questions on QB size when a dude is 6’1, I don’t imagine Reesing and his frame will fit well into the NFL mold. He might be a flier taken late, but he is not going before Sanchez had he waited a year.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 25, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brees

They said the same thing about Brees, Flutie, etc. Prototype is nice – like I said I will take a productive winner any day.

by BucsinTO on Sep 28, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like for each guy on my lists I could make a case either way

it’s more individual than a mass conclusion I/anyone can draw. Would Peyton Manning be better today had he sat out a year? No idea but doubtful. Would McNabb be better off had he started right away? Who knows.

I’m repeating myself, but it’s too individualistic to measure in my opinion.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He MUST Play

Hey stats are clear, playing Freemen is setting him up to fail. However, the Bucs are going to have a top 5 pick in the draft and will be looking at one of the best QB classes ever. The only reason Freemen went in rd 1 this year is because it was a week class bc the elite guys stayed in school to battle for glory. The Bucs will be set up to pick one of Bradford, McCoy or Tebow + anyone else who emerges as a top 10 QB. These guys are all special. Of course big question marks as to whether or not they can continue in the NFL, but are all clearly head and shoulders better than Freeman, you will never find a scout or GM (not employed by the Bucs) to say otherwise. Sanchez and Stafford left early to avoid being stacked against those 3. Bucs need to see if Freeman has what it takes in order to know if back to back rd 1 QB picks is worthwhile. Freeman needs to prove the Bucs right or there will be screams when they pass on a QB at this year’s draft. I wouldn’t want to be on the staff when Freeman is still on the bench labeled a bust when one or multiple of the Hesiman / National Championship QB’s go to the Pro Bowl / Super Bowl.

by BucsinTO on Sep 24, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what disturbs me more.

The fact that you hope Freeman plays just so he can fail or that you really want to allocate that much available resource into one position.

Also, winning a Heisman/National title guarantees nothing. Jason White, Eric Crouch, Chris Weinke, and even Matt Leinart haven’t done much more than Freeman at this point.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meant to add:

Or that you can think you can accurately judge a QB off one season of data.

by R.J. Anderson on Sep 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

I can’t say I agree with this at all. So if Freeman plays now and puts up a stinker, we throw in the towel (and 20+ million) due to that one season? Would you have dumped either Manning in year 1? They had bad years their first year.

Second, how do you know that McCoy, Bradford or (ugh) Tebow’s game will translate to the NFL? You want us to take one of them, on TOP of Freeman and hope they pan out?

If you want to have this discussion about the 2009 draft and how we could have picked another position and planned to get these guys in 2010, thats one thing. But this is absurd.

Also, we could still pick a McCoy or Tebow and trade, or better yet, just trade our high pick (assuming we have one ) and net more picks in return and move down. Win-win.

College success means nothing in the NFL. R.J. gives some examples below.

I can’t imagine giving Freeman as a rookie 10 games to prove himself and then dumping him. The only QB in both lists above who would have passed your test is Roethlisberger.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hear Ya

All points valid the main one being that Freeman was a poor choice for the new regime they should have used the pick on the defensive front 7. Drafting a QB who every scout said was not NFL ready doomed the team to being a bottom feeder (play not to lose QB & 2-3 holes in the front 7). If you were looking for a QB of the future the scouting staff should have been looking at the very deep very talented 2010 pool. My point around the college success of the big 3 is primarily about 2 things they are proven leaders and winners, which is 90% of being a SUCCESSFUL NFL QB. Being 6-5 with a big arm and fast legs looks good at the combine. Freeman was drafted based on raw potential not anything proven, so until he shows something else he is guy who lost a ton of games in college and looks awesome in the gym. The draft is a bet and when I bet I bet on guys with a history of winning. The biggest concern I have is that you get to draft a franchise QB once every 10 years and the Bucs made that bet on Freeman, when it was very clear there were better bets to make a year out with better odds coming (higher pick). Anyone who was optimistic the team was going to be better than 6-10 was/is drunk, the team is the purist definition of rebuilding the league has seen in years. Being a realistic fan doesn’t make me a bad fan. I want them to 14-2. But in the real world they need to get a look at Freeman is the real deal in order to evaluate his true value and then do the math on their 1st round pick next year. The Bucs have anything but a cap issue, the need a QB to build around no matter what the cost. I hope Freeman is it, but I think his window should be tighter than ideal.

by BucsinTO on Sep 24, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Freeman was a dumb pick IMO

We didn’t need a QB. He couldn’t help immediately. The QB’s in next years draft are much deeper. Freeman probably would have been 3rd round in 2010 draft. We should have drafted a player that could have helped us this season and addressed the QB next year, when we have both our first and second round picks.

Now that we are stuck with him I don’t think he should start. Why ruin him? I hope none you guys are under the delusion that Freeman could come in there right now and play better than Leftwich. All he would do is make us lose 42-7 instead of losing 42-28.

by LeeCaz on Sep 24, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think next year's class is a very talented group

but having done zero scouting, hwo do we know that they will turn into solid NFL QB’s? They may be future Hall of Famers, or future clipboard holders. We act as if we know what these guys will do.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know

I’m saying that I think they could have gotten a QB greater than or equal to (potential)Freeman in the first or probably even 2nd round of next year’s draft. We needed someone to come in and contribute immediately on defense. A first round pick that is just going to sit on the sidelines for a year or two seems counterproductive for a rebuilding team. Grooming QB’s is a luxury.

by LeeCaz on Sep 24, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or is it part of the rebuilding process?

I think you could go either way on this one

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 24, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

but I think if a rebuilding team is going to draft a rookie QB, then he should be polished enough to come in and take his licks right away like P. Manning or M. Ryan.

I’m just still angry about the Freeman pick. I guess only time will tell.

by LeeCaz on Sep 24, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes we would lose 42-7 instead of 42-28, but he would be learning something while losing 42-7.

Vinny threw 35 picks his first year as a starter.
He had a crappy team around him. Shawn King had a solid Defense around him and did well.
I would not put Freeman in until Faine returns. But I want to see him this year if the team is 1-6

The Bucs Fired their Offensive "Guru" and gave an unproven assistant a chance. He went 0-6 before he won his first game. That was Tony Dungy.

by Niko Houllis on Sep 24, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ooops, could have sworn I hit the reply button!

The Bucs Fired their Offensive "Guru" and gave an unproven assistant a chance. He went 0-6 before he won his first game. That was Tony Dungy.

by Niko Houllis on Sep 24, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the Bucs thought they would have a chance at a top 5 pick at the end of 2009

They still may not after this season. We certainly don’t look good, but we may not finish the season as one of the bottom five.

Bottom line is, we still don’t know what we actually have in Freeman. We may not know for a couple of seasons. I don’t like when I see people saying that Freeman was a terrible pick, because nobody can know for sure right now.

Gary Williams for President!
Put Rose in the Hall of Fame

by terp12 on Sep 24, 2009 6:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Freeman could become a bust...

That’s what my instincts say… But he could, and I hope he does prove me and the other naysayers wrong…

I do agree with the earlier comment that I’d draft a winner over a specimen…

And I do think that Freeman could start the London game, by neccesity if poor ol’ slug keeps getting pounded…

"Put it on Film" (not on the glass)

by chiefs_55 on Sep 25, 2009 2:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

You know whats wrong with Byron? his body language. ROTFLMAO

When you can’t come up with anything solid just make shit up eh JP. I love seeing the different angles haters take to justify their stance…

the reason it sounds ridiiculous is because it is… the only one I see moping is you…

Byron is a phenomenal leader, did you all notice all the young players jumping out onto the field to congratulate him on his pass to Winslow that jacked him over the 10,000 yard mark.

Stick to his wndup causing him to throw INT’s and get sacked a lot, that one at least come’s off sounding more legit than your hater aid poisoning logic.

You can't swallow what I'm thinking...

by Jagsbch on Sep 25, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way, you dogged me for saying Leftwich would turn it over, and he did

I demand an apology!

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 25, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I dont know if I missed somone else saying this...

but what makes Freeman a obvious franchise guy? If Leftwich continues to play well Freeman might have to wait even longer. Look at Warner in arizona, Matty was supposed to learn from Warner and then take over, and the dolphins had Beck, then Henne, both were tagged franchise QB’s, still sitting the bench. So what if Freeman doesnt ever take over.

by Hook85 on Sep 25, 2009 9:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Then we wait

and hope it turns out like Brees/Rivers.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Sep 26, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs


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