Post Game Discussion - Bucs lost to Bills 33-20
Not much to say about this right now. We looked pretty below average in most categories. Discuss
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65 comments
Comments
About the Game
Not much to say about this right now. We looked pretty below average in most categories
Think that pretty much summed up the whole game very nicely, what more to add really
by ReaderM on Sep 20, 2009 7:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not buying Raheem as a head coach.
Too many penalties, some odd play calls. Also I’m getting tired of check down QBs. It’s most likely going to get a lot worse before it gets better, I just hope it eventually does get better.
by Albertrayon on Sep 20, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
We knew this would be a re-building year.
I wouldn’t throw Morris under the bus just yet.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 20, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody, and Im not saying Morris
has to take the blame for the lack of discipline though
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by Buc Wild on Sep 20, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the result of a young team.
It gets better in time. the question is how much.
The Bucs Fired their Offensive "Guru" and gave an unproven assistant a chance. He went 0-6 before he won his first game. That was Tony Dungy.
by Niko Houllis on Sep 20, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Morris does deserve blame.
But we knew this was a team that lacked talent. When you get flat-out beat by a team, you lose discipline along the way. However, I didn’t watch the game, so I defer to you.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 20, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
picked Raheem prematurely
I remember saying on the blog when they chose him for HC that it was to early to promote him. I thought the better idea was to give Gruden 1 or 2 more years and then promote Raheem as he developed into a good DC. The jump from position coach to HC is just too big for a young guy his age.
I think what the Glazers are doing to Raheem is similar to what the Texans did to David Carr
by miracles83 on Sep 20, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
that people actually think the coach makes that much of a difference. If we have better talent (which we all knew was going to be lacking this year) then we play better/win more and Morris is a genius. But since we suck, Morris is terrible and the worst ever, obv. A head coach makes soooooo minor of a difference. It’s called “we lack talent and are going to be bad for time being.” That doesn’t mean we can’t get better soon
by LoL@MyLackOfSportsKnowledge on Sep 20, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some people want Tomlin results
like you said “talent”……..Tomlin had it when he took over, Switzer had it with the Cowboys in the 90’s when he took over, Gruden had it with Dungy’s team. I blame Domink and Morris for striping talent but as far as what is going on now, that is what happens when you rebuild.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't doubt what you said
but what talent did we cut that we needed? All of our players we cut remain on the scrap heap
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My main thing is they let those guys go without picking anything up...
The FA was dead and I know Dominik made some runs for people but they didn’t want to be on a rebuilding team. Then we need a better saleman. You let that many starters go and fill them in with Derrick Ward (great replacement for Warrick Dunn), Angelo Crowell (with him being hurt does no better than Cato June), Byron Leftwich (doesn’t hold a pink candle to Garcia’s play). There was no replacement for Brooks. Phillips on his best day isn’t as good as Brooks now, at the linebacker spot. Buchanon gave us depth in the secondary that we desperately need, even when TJack comes back. There was zero replacement there. Kevin Carter (we picked up Wilkerson, which I like) is greatly missed as well.
After the free agency flew by I knew that no matter what we did in the draft, we were going to be an awful team. I think we did well in the draft but we lost to much all at one time.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not getting anything in free agency is a whole 'nother story.
I think Dominik is a terrible salesman. He made statements to the likes of ‘well we think that Florida not having a state income tax is our biggest selling point.’
I think Hayes and Black are perfectly fine substitutes for Brooks and June. The problem is depth. They are young and there will be issues with that, but if we are looking to the future, youth is not a bad thing.
Kevin Carter is done. Our pass rush was terrible last season and the defensive line had to be re-structured.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is a weak reasoning....
What if the Bucs are the worst in those areas then they are the ones that need those guys the most. Other teams may be ok at those positions but that doesn’t mean that Brooks or any of them suck!
Did they not play well enough for your seemingly super kigh standards? Basically the team is likely in the condition they are in because of such lack of respect to experience! That is my opinion.
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 21, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think any of those players increases our win chances
Brooks certainly helps in the locker room, but on the field has Geno Hayes been any worse?
Leftwich hasn’t been bad and made throws that Garcia just cant make.
We need experience and leadership, but the guys that are gone, with Brooks being the lone exception had no place. Where does Dunn fit? Garcia? We didn’t cut anyone in the secondary and that’s a mess.
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Though that may be true...
it is one thing to say that they may not offer more to the team but another thing to make it seem like because they do not have jobs is proof they are losers and they suck!
FYI: some of them are own other teams. Garcia – Eagles; June – Texans (broke his arm but he was still picked up); Galloway – Patriots; Alex Smith – Eagles (I belive). To my knowledge the only ones you are refering to are Brooks, Dunn and Ike which at one time were all highly reguarded by the community and contributers to the Bucs past wins.
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 21, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garcia will be gone in 2-3 weeks when McNabb is healthy
June was a back up with Houston, Galloway is 3rd or 4th WR with New England (and dropped a few passes on Sunday), Alex Smith was traded to the Pats who released him. None of the guys we let go are starting anywhere. Some are unemployed.
My point is, whether or not I agree with the cuts, for now it looks like the right decision was made based on strictly performance.
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was in favor of the hire.
…and in favor of letting GruAllen go.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 20, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why hindsight is 20/20
I was skeptical of the hire, and wasn’t in favor of Gruden getting canned only because we had just committed to him with a new deal. But his act was old, and on that front I was glad to see him go. People act like they saw this coming.
Plus, if Morris is so bad (which I don’t believe, yet), is it his fault he’s head coach? I don’t think he elected himself, pretty sure he was hired. Take it up with the Glazer’s (not you, just people in general)
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah you don't just say NO when someone offers you your dream!
He took the job and I would have too.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow hold ur horses....
Its been 2 games and yea it prob. get worst since our scedule don’t favor us at all but it is just 2 games. There is a lot of work to do though I just hope we don’t fire him after this season though because that will be the worst thing to do. Lets give him a couple years before we start judging.
by bucsfan4life on Sep 20, 2009 8:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Grudens Gone - HAPPY NOW???!!!!
You asked for it – you got it! Everyone who was screaming for Gruden’s head last year has now gotten their just desserts. I wrote off this year a while ago and I support the new regime 100%. This is a rebuilding year, like it or not. No coach should be judged on 2 GAMES. You judge a coach on an entire year at the very least.
by JayRay on Sep 20, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was time to move on.
We were stuck in mediocrity. It’s natural to takes a couple of steps backwards before you move forward.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 20, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no kidding
the lackadaisical attitude of this franchise never ceases to amaze me. i felt
for lee roy selmon, so good with no help. tom landry could not win with this
team. a few decent guys, rest of the squad is junk. not like i have not seen it
before after 30 years or so living and dying with this team. the 38-0 playoff
collapse against dallas in 1981 still makes me mad! raheem has no clue,
reminds me of leeman bennett.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tell me about it
seems like being a buc fan takes a high tolerance for pain
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 8:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
could be
tampa has won some with this level of talent. what bothers me is that it seems
that the team has no direction. again leeman bennett revisited
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
TRY TURNING OFF THE BUTTON THAT MAKES ALL THE LETTERS BIG!
as far as the talent that isn’t performing, specifically who are you referring to? We have some very young talent that takes some time to develop (ex: Freeman, Stroughter) And how can one possibly say that this team has no direction? For once, I actually think we DO seem to have direction. It’s called, “bring in young talent so we can build a winning team in the future.” Just because we really really want to win now, doesn’t mean it’s that easy
by LoL@MyLackOfSportsKnowledge on Sep 20, 2009 8:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of me hates this, part of me loves it...
The part of me that was yelling and screaming for the Bucs to draft a defensive linesman in the First Round is enjoying this nice cup of schadenfreude.
The part of me that just wants a good year out of my team is horrified at how poorly the team is doing. These aren’t terrible players – it’s not like these are all dregs of the league, we’ve got talented guys on both sides of the ball – but it’s gotta be the coaching. Whatever defensive schemes Bates has drawn up, he’s just not plugging the right players into the right spots, nor is he adjusting the scheme to fit the players we do have. There was all that drama of firing the OC during preseason, but most of the evidence points to it being a disagreement over having Leftwich be the starter… and no one can tell me that McCown would be doing better right now. So again, there’s gotta be a question about the offensive gameplan…
Relive the shocking NOOOOOOOO of April 25 2009 at Witty's Draft Review and laugh laugh laugh...
by witty on Sep 20, 2009 8:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am so confused
Were people mislead before the season started into believing that we had above average nfl talent on this roster? Because I was informed, quite clearly by most, that we were going to struggle to win games and play competitively? Obviously, I still want to believe we are going to win games and lots of them. But that doesn’t mean you have to lie to yourself that you EXPECTED them to win lots
by LoL@MyLackOfSportsKnowledge on Sep 20, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunate
sam wyche tried some things. could not do it. give tony dungy credit. at least he
got the team attitude turned around, if only temporarily. gruden gave them the
final push. i am scratching my head about how he lost control, but he did. i do
not think that morris is up to the task of rebuilding the winning attitude. i do not
blame him for all the problems. he inherited quite a bit of it. i simply know when
a buccaneer squad needs some inspiration. this coaching staff is squandering
some decent talent. some guys just can’t play, feel sorry for the ones that can.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
like i said
have seen it all many times before. wish i had not. however, like all true buc
fans, i hold out hope that things will be better. someday.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is why I believe....
Some of the younger generation has not been through as many horrific Seasons with this team as us old fans have and they don’t get why we feel the way we do about what is happening with this team. we have seen it happen all to often in the past and how long it usually last……UGH!!!!!!!
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 20, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, lots of anger and hatred in here
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by Buc Wild on Sep 20, 2009 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not really
i let go of my anger years ago. an angry fan would have deserted years ago.
i love this team so much that it just causes me pain sometimes. so many
could haves and should haves. i want us to rebuild too, but just for once could
we find something solid to build on, ala jimmy johnson/troy aikman? they were
horrible once too. look what they did. i loved our super bowl, but it could have
gone on much longer.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
is it possible?
can we stop the bleeding now? i mean miami did it. atlanta did it. those teams
were absolute train wrecks recently. is there anything to build on. someone
please tell me.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the coach
i think morris is a decent guy, it is just that he had no idea what he was letting
himself in for. this franchise sometimes has rebuilding decades, not years.
i hope that it is not true this time. i am skeptical.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He probably is a decent guy....
In my opinion a new HC (especially the youngest one) his best chance at a good 1st season is to change the team as little as possible (just what has to be changed for at one time the Bucs were 9-3 last season) and give himself a year to learn his responsibilities and how to run a team before trying to rebuild something he has NO EXPERIENCE at even running it.
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 20, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the dallas plan
i propose we find a top tier coach, then find a franchise quarterback. it has been
done several times before. aikman, montana, brady, warner, bradshaw, and
many others were once nobodies, along with their teams. no reason exists that
we cannot do that in tampa. the hard knocks are easier to take if you know that
the mission is clear.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If only reality could be that easy....
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 20, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we're on that road
a franchise QB has to be drafted at some point. Those guys you listed were brought in and had time to learn. Brady sat the bench, Manning played, but both had to learn the game.
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by Buc Wild on Sep 20, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
coaches
in a true rebuilding situation, the first year record of a coach does not mean
anything. the what have you done for me lately type of fan does not understand
that. we may all be wrong about morris. it would be nice. maybe he becomes
a legend, with josh freeman leading us to a dynasty. we can always dream.
the odds are against it, but it can be done. i simply do not see it with the poor
front office of this team.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the veterans
when you lose your leaders, the team has no direction. an inspiring guy
like brooks was worth a lot more than the tackles he made. young guys in
the nfl look to the veterans to lead the way. you have to establish a winning
attitude . i think our defense is essentially leaderless. barrett tries, but he
cannot do it alone. our guys look confused out there, with no direction. as
far as leftwich, he has proven in his previous stops he is not the answer.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree
morris made a boo-boo to let those guys go so quick. i chalk that up to his youth
and inexperience. no one was there to tell him differently. i agree that from what
i saw of freeman in college, he is not the answer either. too many important
decisions made too hastily.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
freeman
i have not totally written off freeman yet, too early. he seems to have the tools,
but how much coaching and encouragement is it going to take. i hope we have
another warner on our hands. a champion qb everyone missed. that would be a
real nannananna to the nfl. we shall see. remember jeff george? terry bradshaw
was too dumb? george was a can’t miss. the league does not know everything.
freeman may develop, he just has to have the right teaching. right now the
coaching ineptness and confusion is not helping. bad habits are just as easily
learned as good ones.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe that I remember...
Freeman popping off one time about being better than Mark Sanchez and Mark has the Jets 2-0 this season including a win against the Patriots. If he can back it up is the question at this point!
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 20, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
franchise
i agree with the fact that freeman looks absolutely terrified. at some point a guy
has to have that inner fire that drives him to be better, learn from his mistakes,
believe in himself. i don’t see that in freeman. a great coach and mentor can
get the most out of an athlete. that arrogant attitude of his is going to wear thin
very quickly, unless he can back it up. freeman needs to shut his mouth, pay
attention, and hopefully something good will come of it. if not, can you say
ryan leaf?
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OH, I was saying it more as sarcasm....
I watched him play in college and wasn’t impressed in the slightest. I just thought it was humorous for him to say that and see how nervous and scared he looked in the preseason games.
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Sep 20, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the season
the playoffs are a memory this year. i agree let freeman play some late games,
see what he can do. the franchise needs to know, can this kid play?
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
freeman
the guy just doesn’t have the swagger. sanchez does, don’t know about stafford
yet. the lions are so bad it is hard to tell. a guy like freeman better man up quick
out there, or he is going to be missing some body parts when he gets out there.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Swagger? thats how you're evaluating QB;s?
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stafford is atleast out there playing?
He has C. Johnson and K. Smith, that is it. He has no OL or TEs, but he is out there taking his bumps like a man and it will pay off for him in the long run. When he leaves the Lions for a better organization.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did it pay off for David Carr? Ryan Leaf?
We won’t knwo for years if it paid off. And throwing to Megatron is a lot different than throwing to AB and Clayton
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It varies with every quarterback and every situation.
You can’t make a blanket statement.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is true the system does make a difference
Payton had nothing in indy when he started and struggled his first year until the team began taking shape.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
brooks
teams with a clear plan for success keep the leaders in the locker room. that
is why brooks had little interest. he can play just as well as some of the old
guys i see every week. guess what, they are still on their teams because of the
intangibles, not the play on the field. leaders pass the torch, then they leave.
brooks was given a raw deal, he at least had a year or two left. i guess loyalty
to a team doesn’t mean much anymore.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't get the idea of a rebuilding year anyway, or why fans can't be disappointed about losing.
It’s not like they charge less for tickets during rebuilding years. The FO doesn’t want to say it’s a rebuilding year (which is great because I think they are bogus anyway) so that means we should expect a competitive team to be put out there. I don’t like a lot of the decisions the FO made at the beginning of the year in terms of cuts, the draft, and free agent signings. If this truly is a rebuilding year (but not in name), then why not throw Freeman out there. I was unhappy with his pick in the draft since it’s obvious or defense really needed the help, but as long as all the fans expect 2-14 record let’s get the guy some experience.
by Albertrayon on Sep 20, 2009 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tebow
did anyone see tebow saturday? the guy is nuts. he won’t last a season in the
nfl trying to run like that all the time. i hope the bucs are not thinking about him
in the future. bravery is one thing, but the way that guy plays borders on suicide.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tebow
i agree that the guy has the winning attitude. don’t know if that would translate
into wins with his playing style. would take a strong personality type of coach
to change him. morris is not up to the task of taming tebow. bill cowher or
brian billick could do it.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
championship
the glazers are too tight fisted to bring in too much already developed talent. the
team will have to develop its own. get a good coach, give him control, let him
build his type of football team. brian billick would be my choice. the guy has a
smart approach to the game. he won a super bowl with trent dilfer!
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you think before you speak?
The Glazer’s may be tight now, but they offered big money to Haynesworth and Vilma, not sure I’d say they are completely unwilling.
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your right
Like I said before, we need a Better Salesman. Those two would have given us a completely different looking defense.
Cutler at QB also, we would be playoff bound.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you willing to give up two first round draft picks?
If so, that could completely stunt our defensive growth. That’s alot of talent to give up. We gave it up for Gruden, and while we won the Super Bowl, our depth paid the next few years. The guys we missed would be between 28-30 years old and be (potentially) big contributors.
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but cutler would have paid off for years. We would have been a bigger player in the FA game if Cutler was here and showed the players that we were serious about getting back to the superbowl. Instead of futuristic promises.
by buccanator on Sep 21, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they just threw money in places they shouldn't have.
I DO think they were cheap, but really that’s not the issue right now.
However, if next year goes uncapped, I am completely in favor of them being cheap now and outspending other teams next year.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cowher
bill cowher is a hard-nosed take no prisoners type of coach. it did not win him
many friends, but i like a coach that commands respect. the cowhers and
billicks of the world are a throwback to an earlier era.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Morris doesn't have the respect of his team?
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have to go
nice talking with all of you. no one where i live understands my devotion to this
team, nice to talk with people who care.
by creamsiclecrain on Sep 20, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We stunk today...
At least Leftwich was bad, too… In the words of Gob Bluth, Coach Morris: “I’ve made a terrible mistake!”
"Put it on Film" (not on the glass)
by chiefs_55 on Sep 20, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why was it a mistake?
Leftwich didn’t have a great game, but let’s talk about why and solutions. His stat line was fairly similar to Week 1.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be the first to admit
Leftwich didnt have a great game, but he’s also not giving up 30 points a game. He made one bad throw (the pick 6) and outside of that, I can live with his game. I’d love him to go 30 for 30 for 500 yards 6 TD and 0 INT, but cmon
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by Buc Wild on Sep 21, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least:
We know that Leftwich didn’t have two of the most expensive players in the NFL today: A. Center B. Wide Receiver.
"Put it on Film" (not on the glass)
by chiefs_55 on Sep 20, 2009 11:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Leftwich needs to Leave-Which allows golden boy to start and grow!
"Put it on Film" (not on the glass)
by chiefs_55 on Sep 21, 2009 12:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Instead of just saying that...defend your statement.
And read the various discussions that we have been hashing this out and reply to those.
"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"
by UNFNOLE on Sep 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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