Leftwich Pick Was Safe, Gutless

by HeyItsAdam on Sep 1, 2009 8:35 AM EDT Comment 72 comments

Truth be known, I was rooting for Luke McCown.

There was something about McCown that intrigued me for a long time. When I step out of my “fan zone” and think about why I was rooting for McCown, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I just feel like the Bucs are due to have the “quarterback from nowhere” step in and be a savior. I look at the Patriots with Tom Brady, the Cowboys with Tony Romo, and the Rams with Kurt Warner and I’m thinking that the Law of Averages says that the Bucs in 30-plus years have to have someone buried on their depth chart that can play quarterback at a better-than-average level.

Well they did. His name was Steve Young.

Honestly, I watched McCown and he didn’t seem to make the goof-ball errors that a Ryan Leaf or a Brett Favre would make. His errors were more along the lines of someone who didn’t get a lot of playing time. I remember seeing him run out of bounds when flushed from the pocket for a 1-yard loss rather than just throwing the ball out of bounds. A veteran would have done the latter.

I didn’t see the dumb interceptions, forcing the ball into coverage, or anything along those lines. The guy has a strong arm, he plays with fire, and the few opportunities that he had with the first-team offense, he did pretty well.

So when I read that Bucs head coach Raheem Morris named Byron Leftwich the starting quarterback for the season, I was extremely disappointed, but not because I picked the wrong horse, but because it seemed like such a contrary decision.

I have been drinking the Morris Kool-Aid since the summer. I loved all the talk about the defense being “violent.” I loved the fact that he has two running backs of similar size and weight, which leads me to believe that he wants to beat up a defense with two sledgehammers. I liked the idea of the zone blocking scheme which worked so well in Denver and saw basically any running back with four functioning limbs rack up 1,000 yards.

That being said, the Leftwich pick seemed like a gutless pick.

It’s the pick that would generate the least scrutiny if Leftwich falls flat on his face and has a Chris Simms circa 2006 start to the season. The media and the fans will ask, “Why’d you pick Leftwich?” and Morris will reply, “Well, he was a guy with experience, he was a starter, he played under pressure, he won a Super Bowl with Pittsburgh, he’s been to the playoffs, yadda yadda yadda,” and the fans and the press will just kind of shrug and say “Eh, okay. Makes sense.”

But if Morris picks McCown and McCown pulls a Simms, Morris will have nothing to fall back on. Morris can’t point to his record (which is artificially deflated from his starts with an abysmal Cleveland team and mop-up duty with the Bucs’ second-stringers in former head coach Jon Gruden’s failed “let’s-rest-the-starters” plan from 2007). He can’t point to his experience or to his stats.

And a new coach who’s trying to win over a team and a town can’t have his first year mired in second guessing.

But picking McCown had tremendous upside. Let’s say Morris picks McCown and he lights it up for 25 touchdowns and sneaks the Bucs into the playoffs. Morris will look like the guy who said, “Let’s slice the bread first, then put it in the bag.” Talk about cementing your place with a team and a city! That move alone would get Morris a couple of seasons of leeway because he’d be the guy who was smart enough to see McCown’s ability. If Leftwich gets the Bucs to the playoffs, it was somewhat expected.

The stats between Leftwich and McCown were fairly close. Leftwich attempted more passes, thus leading to more total passing yards, but McCown’s completion percentage was better and he rushed for 21 yards on five carries (compared to Leftwich’s -1). McCown’s bid to start gets hampered by coming in to a the crucial third pre-season game after a 45 minute lightning delay that essentially took all the momentum out of both teams. He loses out on a score because guard Davin Joseph commits three penalties on a drive that should have resulted in a field goal (and did, but Joseph’s false start negated a 47-yard field goal). McCown was running for his life against Miami; you could see the frustration on his face as he headed to the bench after third down. His job was on the line and it was apparent that the rest of team just wanted to get off the field uninjured. It wasn’t fair to him.

But I don’t think it mattered. Morris played it safe. He essentially “checked down.” Ironically, that’s what got his predecessor fired.

In short, picking Leftwich was the equivalent of going to the roulette table and betting “odd;” you can double your money. Picking McCown would be like betting on “red 12” and winning the big money

Risk versus reward.

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Great post man

my sentiments exactly. In a battle between two backups he took the safe (gutless, as you said) choice. We’ll see what if anything happens in the last preseason game.

by Tetris on Aug 31, 2009 11:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Are we trying to play rushin rollete or trying to win some football.

No coach is looking for a story book story, story book ending just happen, they aren’t premediated. What facts would lead you to McCown having a 25 td season when he didn’t even score in two preseason games- no fg or anything. He has more INTS than TD. He has been in the league 6 years and hasn’t gotten a chance, what leads you to believe that he is ready to be a LEADER?

This does make a nice story, i must admitt but as the head coach, you aren’t going to pick a guy because he would make a good story. There are very few doug flutie and kurt warner stories. Not really sold on the Tony romo, he still hasn’t won in the playoffs , no matter how good his stats have been. This is a established offensive unit, we have no rookies starting no where on the offensive unit, so why would you pick the most important position and put a guy with no experience in the game?

Leftwich is a veteran and just flat out moved the ball better in preseason – He has 224 yards passing vs McCown’s 108 yards. I went back and watched the McCown performances and he just flat out can’t read a defense. He missed open guys and gave his receivers very few chances to make plays. He was quick to bail out and run or just stand there and get sacked. He is not ready and Leftwich was the BETTER choice, McCown would have been the Gutless choice- McCown had a chance to grab the spot and he didn’t, no one is going to follow this guy as you can see by the poor team play when he was in

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but...

This is a established offensive unit, we have no rookies starting no where on the offensive unit, so why would you pick the most important position and put a guy with no experience in the game?

Which makes this a perfect opportunity to throw someone without experience in. The ‘veterans’ around the QB will help to minimize mistakes. It can be argued that the Bucs offense, now, is in a better position than Atlanta’s and Baltimore’s last year. Hell, I’d personally go with Freeman. He would obviously make tons of mistakes and might in turn lose some games for us, but in the long term anyone, QB or not learns quicker on the field. It worked in ‘78 with Doug Williams, why wouldn’t it work now. But this is unrealistic, Morris isn’t going to play Freeman just yet, oh snap!

by Tetris on Sep 1, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would be nice to get Freeman in ...

But not at the expense of the team. If they have a guy who can win games for them (Leftwich – like it or not but its a fact), that is who is going to get the first crack at it. These veterans want to play and win, they didn’t come here under the impression this team was rebuilding. They came here because the team is taking a new direction with new everything , Leftwich is at a point where this is his make or break year. If he produces, he can revive his career, if he doesn’t- he will be out of the league or a career backup. What more do you want, stakes are high and looks like we have a good hand. No need to fold it for a new one if we have one that has potential to Win.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Leftwhich Winning games is a Fact?

24 wins to 23 losses When he Starts isn’t Showing he can win games for a fact and Leftwhich has Fumbled 32 times in his Career not including Postseason. If you ask me that Blows!!! 8 times in 2005 where he only played 3 games. What a Great starting QB. lol

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL......

“What a great starting QB.” I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone use the words great and QB ever in the same sentence as refering to Leftwich. Not even in sarcasm. I got a good laugh from that. Thanks!

I do agree with this article. Maybe not so much that McCown should be the starter as more importantly that Leftwich SHOULDN’T be. His playing style just increases chances for MORE turn overs and more losses in a season when we finally get a number of offensive weapons. Weapons that are useless standing on the side line if Leftwich keeps turning the ball over. People that don’t learn from the past is destined to repeat the same mistakes and never grow.

by Tye on Sep 1, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Weapons are also useless if the QB refuses to deliver the ball downfield.

McCown’s average per attempt. – 3.85 yards.
Leftwich’s average per attempt. – 5.23 yards

As far as using weapons, Leftwich had more attempts, but look at these numbers
Leftwich: 45 passing attempts – 31 to WR (69%) , 6 to TE (13%) , 8 to RB (17%)
McCown: 27 passing attempts – 15 to WR (55%), 6 to TE (22%), 6 to RB (22%)

Leftwich: 2 sacks, 1 scramble
McCown: 4 sacks, 4 scrambles

For the record, none of there numbers are good, but I don’t think anyone can honestly say Leftwich doesn’t utilize his weapons. His yards per attempt is 1.5 yards higher (but still not good) and has 82% of his attempts go to WR/TE. McCown has 72%.

I cant believe I’m defending Leftwich. I have no predisposition towards him (or McCown)

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And as I said...

I am not trying to push for McCown. BUT IN MY OPINION, Leftwich has played the same way his whole career. If you really believe that his play (fumbling, over throws, sacks for losses) won’t be taken advantage of by the caliber teams that they will be playing this year then you go right ahead a put your money on them and let me know how that works out for you.

That was pre-season and teams that are not so known for their defense as MANY of those teams they play in the regular season. If He continues to play that way (and their in nothing that says he won’t) their is a football phrase that will likely be repeated each game, “PICK 6”!

by Tye on Sep 1, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And as for Buc Wild's Stat sheet

when does average yards per attempt mean anything? lmao seems irrelevant if you ask me, and the fact on what position he throws to more??? Really? is this your evidence to prove he can do the job? lol

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you actually read my post

the stats were pointing towards the assumption that Leftwich did not utilize his weapons as McCown supposedly does. His yards per attempt shows he either A) goes down the field more or B) provides bigger chunks of yardage.

As far as who he throws to more, again, it was aimed at the notion that Leftwich didnt utilize his weapons (WR/TE) when in fact he threw to them more.

You can debate all you want, but if you are going to post without reading what people said, it’s gonna be an issue.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh i read your Post right

And It still is Irrelevant to what your trying to Say.

4 yards to 5 yards on attempts shouldn’t be the a Difference on whether one starts or not or even prove that one throws down the field more then the other.. 1 yard more then the other person doesnt mean he goes down field more, which he probably Over throws the Receiver for that extra 1 yard anyways. lol and on that post you also had false stats: Luke Mccown only got sacked 3 times not 4. Also Leftwhich still got Sacked for more yards then Mccown even thou mccown got sacked more AND Luke Threw for 1 more TD then Leftwhich with almost half as many Attempts as Leftwhich had.

All this Proves that Raheem Morris Simply made a Gruden mistake by Starting a more Experienced QB but Less Talented QB.

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its not one yard more, one more yard per attempt.

And if Leftwich overthrows guys, its inexcusable, but if they are dead passes that fall to the ground, I’ll take those over tucking the ball and running every single time. He gave his WR’s a chance to make plays.

McCown did throw 2 TD’s, Leftwich led more scoring drives. McCown delivered on good field position, as did Leftwich.

I’m not so sure that McCown is more talented than Leftwich. They both do different things well.

I wanted McCown to start at the beginning of camp, check my post history. He just didn’t get it done, he didn’t delver the ball, and his ability to read defenses didn’t progress.

And since you dont get the point of my posts, see if you can follow this. Tye said this

Weapons that are useless standing on the side line if Leftwich keeps turning the ball over.

So I pointed out the obvious flaw in that statement becuase its meant to say McCown would/will utilize his weapons more.

McCown’s average per attempt. – 3.85 yards.
Leftwich’s average per attempt. – 5.23 yards

As far as using weapons, Leftwich had more attempts, but look at these numbers
Leftwich: 45 passing attempts – 31 to WR (69%) , 6 to TE (13%) , 8 to RB (17%)
McCown: 27 passing attempts – 15 to WR (55%), 6 to TE (22%), 6 to RB (22%)

Leftwich: 2 sacks, 1 scramble
McCown: 4 sacks, 4 scrambles

Thus, Leftwich actually went to his weapons more.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And as far as the number of TD throws

For every drop back (and we really should look at number of plays) Leftwich led drives totaling 19 points on 45 dropbacks or .45 points for every drop back. McCown totaled .51 points per dropback.

McCown also took a sack once every 6 drop backs. That’s an insane number. Leftwich took 1 sack for every 45 drop backs.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction

He got sacked 2 plays in a row and he got the intentional grounding on the following drive which counts as a sack in my book.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I could give evidence as to why both should and shouldnt start

it’s not difficult, neither appear to be world beaters.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here are somre more numbers you need to throw in.

Luke: 19 yards, 51 and 38 yards passing = 108 yards in 3 games
Leftwich: 61, 63 and 100 yards passing = 224 yards in 3 games

This is what Morris means in he provides a deep threat. Luke didn’t move drives , which leftwich moved the ball steadily each position. Leftwich had zero 3 and out drives while luke had numerous, atleast 3.

Luke went scoreless in 1st and 3rd game.
Leftwich scored in every game 1: 10pts 2: 3 pts 3: 6pts

Flat out luke just isn’t consistent enough. Either he is steady or he is just aweful and can’t move the ball and takes sacks. Luke also fumbled the first game but was bailed out by a facemask call vs the titans (it was going to be a fumble recovery for a TD).

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

:)

Glad to know i got a laugh outta someone. lol

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Second that

Another funny thing is that it seems no one has said anything about the fumble he had because of his long wind up. He looks like he is throwing from the stretch. McCown got in the endzone twice!!! Don’t say he had a short field…that is just the game of football. However, I seem to remember the team having trouble in the redzone last year, yet McCown capitalizes there. The line never gave him the protection that Leftwich had, which led to everyones critisizing McCown for running, and McCown did not have horrible throws like the Leftwich’s throw to a wide open Winslow down the middle that even I could have completed. He also threw a terrible ball to Clark in the endzone which could have been a TD if thrown right. Sure Leftwich had some success when Rothelisberger went down butmost NFL QBs would when you have that team surrounding you. He have not played very many good DLs yet and when Leftwich will have to scramble it will look like my grandfather trying to cruise in his walker. Also, I am still bitter that they paid both Leftwich and McCown a good amount of cash yet we barely even hit the free agency with all of the cap room we had.

by Trobes05 on Sep 1, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you say anything about the McCown Fumble vs the Titans

I guess this didn’t get mentioned because he was bailed out by a Facemask call but he fumbled and it was going to be a fumble recovery for a TD. That was due to McCowns inability to read a blitz or get rid of the ball, he also got a intentional grounding and if McCown would throw the ball, we would see what he has . But Like always , he took 3 sacks vs the dolphins and got sacked to move the team out of fg position. Nice management. What about the other drives that McCown went 3 and out or didn’t move the ball at all? The OL did a good job protecting Leftwich and McCown did have the same line, Why such the change? Must be McCown and not the line. You see Leftwich talking, cheering guys on, checking at the line and I see McCown just look around like where am I and run a play that is going to get him killed without checking the protection. What about when McCown took the first sack vs the dolphins and Stroughter was WIDE OPEN on a out pattern , the camera showed him jumping up and down like a little kid. That is just poor field vision.

McCown does show good skills, skills to be a career backup. He just can’t put his brain with his feet. If he could think the position, he might could crack a starting lineup but he is stuck on running out of the pocket and not setting his players up to succeed. The QB job is to control everything. McCown can’t even control his self.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know Sammie was open on the play but...

If it was a designed bootleg to the right (I don’t have a playbook so just sayin’) attempting a throw wound not only be extremely difficult, but it would be a dangerous pass as well. He would’ve had to throw across his body and it would be difficult to get anything on the ball.

by Tetris on Sep 1, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW if anyone should have started it should have been Luke Mccown

He clearly did Better then LEftwhich during the Preseason
Luke had Better Qb Rating,Pass %,and 1 more TD then leftwhich with the only bad thing was he had 1 more sack. but i much rather have that one more TD in a game with a Sack then 1 less TD and 1 less sack.

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 1:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

We can make stats show anything we want to

Luke had more TD’s, he also took more sacks. McCown is able to create with his feet, but Leftwich converted more third downs. McCown started with a short field, but he threw 2 TD’s. McCown played better, but Leftwich had more scoring drives.

Each of those two guys have their obvious strengths and fatal weaknesses. McCown does some great things, so does Leftwich. Unfortunately, they both have some things they dont do so well.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But

Leftwhich has Proven To Turnover the Ball ALot more then just about anyone in the NFL. and i dont get how Leftwhich Has more Scoring Drives When Luke Mccown Scored more. You gotta understand we are looking at the QB’s not the team at this point.
And like i said in my last post even thou Luke got sacked more, Leftwhich got Sacked for more yards. which one would you rather have?

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its Leftwich first of all, not Leftwhich

Provide some stats as to how Leftwich turns the ball over more than anyone in the NFL please. Thats just a vague statement with no bearing. McCown led two scoring drives (two TD’s in game 2). Leftwich led the TD drive and FG drive in game 1, a FG drive in game 2 and 2 field goals in game 3. That means McCown had 2 scoring drives to Leftwich’s 5 scoring drives.

McCown led drives totaling 14 points, Leftwich led drives totaling 19 points (all per NFL.com). So you’re wrong, McCown didn’t score more.

ANd I’d rather have the QB who got sacked once. That kills one drive, getting sacked multiple times kills multple drives. But even thats irrelevant without knowing when, where and how the guy got sacked. Id rather a player take a sack at their own 35 than the opponents 30.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, we're over looking the goal of the starting quarterback

This year his goal is to guide the offense, not be the sole playmaker. He is needed to run the team, tutor Freeman, and make good decisions and not lose the game. That’s it. This wasn’t about starting the future QB, the most talented QB, the most athletic, the one with the best arm, the oldest or the youngest. Its to start the guy that gives us the best chance to win in this offense, which means, the guy who can hand the ball off, can run play action, and can deliver the ball downfield. Off the field he has to be able to school the rookie. That’s it.

Morris, as well as most people you talk to will tell you that McCown has skill, I readily admit that. But he doesn’t do so well in the thinking part of the game. Not throwing the ball away, intentional grounding, running out of the end zone for a safety. These are knocks on him.

THe knocks on Leftwich, are too slow, long windup, and injury prone.

Neither of these guys are being mistaken for All-Pro guys, but we have to look at what they are being asked to do. If it was an offensive line that wasn’t protecting well, or required a mobile quarterback, I’d want McCown in there. Different guys for different schemes. McCown was a better fit in Gruden’s west coast offense. Just like Garcia was.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i understand my Bad..Leftwich

You want Evidence to prove he turns over the ball more then just about everone in the league.

Leftwich has Fumbled 32 times in his Career more then half as many TD’s he Threw, plus he Fumbled the ball 8 times in 3 games in 2005( Who does that?) and He threw 38 Int’s to 54 TD’s making that he turned over the ball 16 times more then he Scored.

by Maxumas on Sep 1, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But McCown has no great record either

He has 9 tds and 10 ints and 5 fumbles, 27 sacks in just 12 games. He is 1 and 6 as a starter. Evidence proves Leftwich has had better success than him also. He takes less sacks per game, threw more td’s than ints and has more wins -24. We haveto put one of these guys out there so Leftwich has done better then McCown so this is why he gets the NOD.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But thats hard to Put together

Due to the fact that he hasn’t got as many starts as Leftwich does. not as many chances.

by Maxumas on Sep 2, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

First of all,

on the fumbles, that’s total fumbles, he lost 12. If we look at total fumbles and picks Warner has 23 more INT/fumbles than scores and Favre has 3 more fumbles/INT’s than scores. Those were the only two players I looked up.

So no, he doesnt turn it over more than anyone in the NFL, but you also are using skewed stats. He lost 12 fumbles, threw 38 picks and 54 TD’s. Not stellar, but not near what you made it out to be.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fumbles are still fumbles

Regardless of if he loses it or not and if you think otherwise then your saying its ok he Fumbles? because i’m not ok with him fumbling at ALL!!

And you just compared a 7th year pro too two of the oldest players in the league(Other then kickers and punters of course). and those players at least make up for there mistakes with over 4000 passing yard seasons and over 30 TD’s in one season where Leftwich has never threw over 3000 yards in one season, has never Played more then 15 games in one season, or even threw more then 15 TD’s in one season. and your comparing who???

by Maxumas on Sep 2, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your point was that he turns the ball over more than he scores

That is factually incorrect. You also said he turns it over more than any one in the NFL. Again, incorrect. Warner’s age is irrelevant as he has 10 or 11 seasons in the NFL. And again, those were the only two I looked at.

Since you didnt like those guys, here are a few more.

Eli Manning – 98 TD’s, 74 INT’s, 39 Fumbles (14 lost). He won a Super Bowl, was a #1 pick and still is starting with a new $90+ million dollar deal. Hasnt been in league longer than Leftwich. More fumbles/INT than scores

Derek Anderson – 43 TD, 35 INT, 16 Fumbles (5 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Ben Roethliseberger – 101 TD, 69 INT, 32 Fumbles (15 lost) Same fumbles/INT as TD

Marc Bugler – 117 TD, 87 INT, 36 Fumbles (24 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Jon Kitna – 152 TD, 151 INT, 103 fumbles (44 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Jason Campbell – 35 TD, 23 INT, 21 fumbles (9 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Jake Delhomme – 115 TD, 76 INT, 52 Fumbles (25 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Jay Cutler – 54 TD’s, 37 INT’s, 24 Fumbles (8 lost). More fumbles/INT than scores

Players that have more fumbles (total, not lost) and INT’s than TD’s. Pretty big list. And I didnt bother to include “old guys” since you dont seem to count them. On this list there is a #1 pick, multiple Super Bowl champs, Pro Bowlers, and a few 70+ million dollar guys.

Again. Your assertion is incorrect. If you dont like Leftwich, thats fine. If you dont want him as the starting quarterback, thats fine, but it’s not fine to jsut make broad statements that are wrong.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You think my information is incorrect but your misunderstanding the point.

Leftwich has only played 54 games in his career. Eli has played 73 which is 19 games more then Leftwich but yet he only fumbled 7 more times then leftwich.(by the way i like the Choice of the QB you used this time. lol)

And i count any fumble a turnover because it’s still a lost of possession during the fumble so its no ones ball until someone has possession again.(i know what i count it for isn’t what everyone considers it but my bad.) and You still dont want a QB fumbling the ball is my point and he tends to do it more then alot of QB’s for the time he has played.

by Maxumas on Sep 2, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your information is incorrect

Your point is Leftwich has fumbled alot in your opinion and fumbles are bad. Agreed. Fumbles are bad, I dont want it to happen.

But he is not the worst offender (nor the best) and has some good company in the range he is in. We can’t compare Eli and Leftwich directly because they have had different careers, OL’s, RB’s etc.

To use Eli, he has .53 fumbles a game. Letfwich has .59 fumbles a game. So difference in games doesn’t make a huge difference here. it’s minute and adds up to one extra fumble every 16 games (one a year). Not a reason to throw the comparison out.

Leftwich will never be known as Fort Knox with the ball, but we have to look at it in comparison here.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My information is Correct.

nothing you said in your post Proves my information is wrong. so please tell me where my information is wrong and not say my opinion is wrong.

by Maxumas on Sep 2, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here you go

leftwhich with the only bad thing was he had 1 more sack.

McCown was sacked 4 times (1 negated due to penalty), Leftwich sacked once. Therefore your “one more sack” is wrong.

Leftwich has Fumbled 32 times in his Career more then half as many TD’s he Threw, plus he Fumbled the ball 8 times in 3 games in 2005( Who does that?) and He threw 38 Int’s to 54 TD’s making that he turned over the ball 16 times more then he Scored.

The ball was not turned over more times than scoring. As I said, a fumble recovered by his own team is not a turnover. And you can refer to my list again for all the other QB’s who fall in that range.

Leftwhich has Proven To Turnover the Ball ALot more then just about anyone in the NFL.

Again, false. See numbers above.

and i dont get how Leftwhich Has more Scoring Drives When Luke Mccown Scored more.

As explained above, Luke led 2 scoring drives, Leftwich authored 5.

24 wins to 23 losses When he Starts isn’t Showing he can win games for a fact

Winning record, 23 wins more than McCown

Leftwich has only played 54 games in his career. Eli has played 73 which is 19 games more then Leftwich but yet he only fumbled 7 more times then leftwich.

I’ve thrown multiple stats your way, but you only seem interested in stats for guys of the same age with the same number of starts. There isn’t anyone that fits that bill.

Additionally, you want us to look at stats to compare McCown to Leftwich in the preseason, but not look at any other stats over the last 5-6 years for McCown, Leftwich, or any other QB. I wanted McCown to start at the beginning of the preseason, I dont think anyone won the QB battle.

I don’t think McCown or Leftwich is better. It’s choosing the shiniest turd at this point, but Morris chose the guy, I can understand why (just like I could if he picked McCown) and that’s the end of that. We can debate it and nitpick Leftwich (or McCown) when they play, but the numbers are what they are.

Neither has a stellar career thus far.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The issue with this argument is..

You have 1 guy (Buc Wild) who is doing some serious research and coming up with ACTUAL facts to support his argument. Then you have the opposition who is basically basing his argument off of what he thinks, not coming up with facts to back up his argument and taking the facts presented and basically disregarding them. That being said to the people who actually look at the facts the argument has been won long ago by Buc Wild, however, to people who just want to make their own facts it is a lost cause.

by RuudAwakening on Sep 3, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your opinion isn't wrong at all

but your reasoning and the stats that you’ve tried to use aren’t correct and the stats you’ve ignored disprove what you want to point to.

I have no problem with your opinion. Or anyone else’s. But if you want to argue and use stats, please be factually correct.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fumbles are part of the game

11 Guys are attacking the QB on every play. Some are going to make it to him and some aren’t . Fumbles don’t hurt that much unless they take you out of scoring position or you lose them. Fumbles that you recover don’t count against anything but field position. If it is third and 25 and the qb fumbles but gets it back. No one is going to care about the fumble because the distance was to great to overcome (playing the odds, of coarse once in a while it will be completed). So lets just worry about the loss fumbles for sake of arguement. Nice FACTS Buc Wild!! Really are doing your HW I see.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 2, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unless the fumble was recovered in the endzone

then it would be a safety!
lol, just kidding : ) I’m happier today than I was the other day, sorry about that.

by Tetris on Sep 2, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am having a hard time understanding one thing....

When we ditched Garcia, I didn’t see much crying around, which is understandable I guess. However, from what I have seen of McCown, he plays like a worse version of Garcia. I mean, think about this, everyone on the McCown wagon talks about mobility, quck release, & better accuracy. Ok, fine that is great, maybe he beats Lefty in those catagories, however, that does not change the fact that Garcia is arguably (and as far as stats show) better than McCown in each of those areas. So what I am struggling to understand is how we can dump off Garcia and no one seems to care, then people turn around and root for what is essentially (from what I have seen) a worse version of Garcia.

Leftwich is simply the better fit for what the team is wanting I think, maybe I am wrong, but if we are going to be run a run first, set up the deep ball with the run and keep the running game open with the deep threat team, Lefty is simply a better fit. Also, if Freeman is the future, what does it matter? If we truly are buying another year for Freeman to learn, then who cares.

It seems every single person who is rooting for McCown is expecting a tank of a season anyway, so what does it matter. The bottom line is, the pick has been made. If McCown remains of the team maybe you guys will get lucky and Lefty will go out (for one reason or another) & McCown will step in and show us all how Garcia esque he can be….

by RuudAwakening on Sep 1, 2009 1:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I understand your point

McCown, though, has a more prototypical size and has a way bigger arm (plus Garcia is like 40).

by Tetris on Sep 1, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand your point as well...

I know Garcia is old and does not have much of an arm, I was just comparing the playing styles and thus far they have been the same. The biggest difference I saw was that Garcia appeared to be more elusive, and it is pretty had for anyone to argue with his accuracy (although mostly due to the amount of short passes he throughs). I have just watched McCown in all of the preseason games and was just way too reminded of last years offense. With the one difference being he took multiple sacks where Garcia did not take many sacks… With Leftwich in the game, the offense had a different look, granted after the ball is hiked he sits there like knot on a log, he took shots down field (which when we get our starting recieving core back those shots will start connecting more), and he moved the ball more then McCown. Like I said in the grand scheme of things does it really matter that much if all we are doing is buying some time for Freeman to learn?

by RuudAwakening on Sep 1, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Give me a 27-29 year old Garcia

and I think everyone would unanimously want him to start. The only and it was a good reason to let him go is his playing style and age. He was ruthless with his body and therefore put himself in harm’s way. You can’t have a 40 year old QB doing this.

by miracles83 on Sep 1, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

tbbucs4 gets it

A common theme I keep reading is that "the line did not give the same protection to McCown as it did Leftwich". Is this not the point? Which player showed better leadership to get the team fired up? Which player did the team seem to rally around the most? I believe it was Leftwich. Let’s wait and see what happens.

by McBuc on Sep 1, 2009 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

How do you say someone got the team inspired?

I don’t remember any comments from Davin Joseph or Sammie Stroughter saying that Leftwich came out and had them believe they were gonna get into the endzone. Until that happens, you can’t say that Leftwich was the best inspirational leader. You just have to chalk it up to the line played better under leftwich for whatever reason..

by miracles83 on Sep 1, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tetris gets it too

by McBuc on Sep 1, 2009 9:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Its a tough call

I wanted McCown too, but this isn’t fantasy Buc football for the coach. He had to go with the safer pick. It is his job, he has a family. It may buy him a longer tenure with the Bucs. Your initial column gave us the upside if McCown started and looked good. The downside McCown would have been brutal. I also disagree that if Leftwich gets the Bucs to the playoffs it is somewhat expected. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, outside of Tampa, and most inside of Tampa are picking the Bucs for the playoffs this year. I just hope they have one hell of a running game this year.

by terp12 on Sep 1, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

McCown set up?

I agree with your blog; also I think if it was going to be a real competition, McCown should have started in the 3rd game. When he went in, there was little protection and had to run for his life. He does have a lot more mobility than Leftwich; also, what good is throwing the ball downfield if you dont usually connect with the receiver?

by ftballfan on Sep 1, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Exactly!

{" what good is throwing the ball downfield if you dont usually connect with the receiver?" }OR constantly throw it to defenders down field?

by Tye on Sep 1, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What good is mobility if you run into sacks?

We can go at this all day. If we want to utilize our weapons, I’ll take the guy who gives them a chance to make plays, has a higher yards per attempt and doesnt escape the pocket on every play.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 1, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And like everyone else....

You are entitled to your opinion! If (but I’m Not) I was an owner of a muti-billion dollar oganization their is NO CHANCE, NONE, Nadah, in this earth Leftwich would EVER be a part of my team, not even a back up.

Sacks are not as likely to turn into turn overs as down field over throwing is to interceptions. At least after a sack your team still has the ball. Sacks doesn’t lead to lossing games as much as turn overs do. No matter how good the defense is they are weaker the more tired they get and then your playing into the hands of the opponent.

If I were a betting man the only thing about this I would bet on is the BOOS for Leftwich at the home games aren’t going to stop until he is pulled. People have seen enough of him to know that he has problems and they want a good, young, quality, talented guy they can depend on to be QB than a guy that has had plenty of chances and was passed on by so many. Love on him all you want because that is your prerogative but DON’T expect me too or even agree with it. Water is wet, Fire is hot and Leftwich is mediocre at best.

by Tye on Sep 1, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Choice?

Opponents defense not Morris picked the qb. Lefty in… defense back, Luke in … defense crowds the line. If you want to run the ball which qb would you want?

by wtfbucs on Sep 1, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I believe this is true as well...

This was a huge factor in the play of each QB. The only difference is the defense did not determine the play of the QB, the QB determined the play of the defense. I truly believe that if McCown would have had better pocket presence and took some shots down field, we would have been having a different discussion. However, that being said, he did not, he ran at the drop of a hat and threw pretty much all check down passes…I said pretty much because if I am not mistaken one of his TD passes was 20+ yards. But if you go back and look at the footage, Lefty threw quite a few of 20+ yard passes. Now he did not connect with all of them obviously, however, just the act of attempting to stretch the field keeps the D playing back a little. The act of leaving the pocket and scrambling to the right for a check down pass does 2 things, makes it near impossible to throw cross field to the left and allows the D to play tighter and stack more backs in the box, AKA blitz on more downs. This does a couple things, A: Hurts the run, B: eliminates your ability to take shots down field because, well that is tough to do from the flat of your back. Therefore eventually, the QB is forced to do more of the same (scramble & take the check down pass to avoid getting sacked). For those of you who can not see the logic in my reasoning, I don’t know what to tell you.

But that is why Lefty was picked over McCown, he simply fits the scheme better. Had this been Gruden’s scheme, of the 2 McCown would have been the better fit, however, it is not, & I for one it am happy it is not. Gone are the days of our lackluster Bucs offense. Not that it will be amazingly electrifying, however, it will be run first pass second and when you do pass, look to go down field….I could be totally wrong, however, I doubt it…

by RuudAwakening on Sep 2, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

GREAT ARTICLE

I liked McCown too. His mistakes where minor and they came out of lack of experience. He plays smart and he’s really athletic. Spreads the ball around too. I agree with you in that he didn’t gat a fair shake. Morris wanted Leftwich because it was safe. Having said all of this, as I watched Luke run around back there against Miami, with no blocking and no one to throw to, he looked frazzled. Leftwich look poised. This reinforced Morris’ decision. Lefwich will probably get hurt, and McCown should play then. What he does then will be the only deciding factor at that point. I think his days in Tampa are numbered. He will go somewhere with a good coach who can spot potential like New England. He would be a perfect fit for Belicheck. I had hoped Gruden would have given him a chance, but he had bad luck at the position and was not the kind of guy to build a young QB. I remember him shaking Gradkowski on the sidelines. Has anyone seen Bruce with the Raiders? Looked pretty good.

by louieyak on Sep 1, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What?

Do you actually believe the Morris made this decision because it was the “safe” pick? To say that is erronous. This decision wasn’t just made during the games. OTAs, training camp and games go into this decision. Morris got opinions from Greg Olsen (QBs Coach) and Coach Jagodzinski
Plain and simple Leftwich is a better fit with what Coah Jags is trying to do.
To say Coach Morris is worried about what the fans think, and that it would play into a desicion as important as QB is down right stupid. If we are going to talk about “gutless” I haven’t saw a post from HeyItsAdam to defend his post.
.

by robucs1 on Sep 1, 2009 6:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

LOL, this had only 2 comments last time I looked!! FLAME ON!!

Oh, by the way, Nice article…

except Steve Young was a highly touted quarterback from BYU who went to the USFL instead of NFL, and the Bucs got him with their rights to USFL players, which gets complicated, but he didnt come out of nowhere. Steve Young was a star in college at BYU, back when they threw the ball 50 times a game, and produced several other named QBs like Marc Wilson, McMahon, and Steve Young…in a row.

My Buddy went somewhere to get high and watch some good fights, and after a few minutes a Bucs Practice broke out.

by Niko Houllis on Sep 1, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The author is dead right

There are stats and there are key throws and key victories that don’t show up in the stats, See how you feel about Byron after 8 games, The stats may look reasonable, but they will be empty calories,

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by Tkopa on Sep 1, 2009 9:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

...and you've probably seen a lot more of Byron than we have.

by Tetris on Sep 1, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about the rest of the team?

I think the article was great and on point. And the follow up statements and statistics are good as well. But what about the rest of the offensive contributors. With all the turnover in the offseason from the GM down , doesnt anyone think that a player the rest of the team knows and are comfortable with should start. This is Leftwich first year here and when his career is long over with he will be remembred as a journeyman quarterback. I think the team could rally behind Mcnown, someone they have a relationship and probaly deep down have been rooting for since last year. As close as the "competition " was in the preseason I think the rest of the team would follow Luke into battle. Maybe im wrong and Leftwich has made believers along the offensive unit. Regardless of who starts with posts like the previous ones as soon as Leftwich slips the fans will be clamoring for Luke from our pirate ship.

by bigkris9 on Sep 1, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

No one is Following a career backup, a 5th round pick (McCown)

If the team was rooting for luke, they would have caught those passes they dropped, lineman would have picked up those blitzs, and McCouwn would have gave them something to give them hope. From what Morris said , the decision was UNANAMIOUS among the coaches and Front Office, this means that Luke just didn’t get it done. If Leftwich falters , please believe – fans will be calling for Freeman not Luke. Freeman is the guy everyone wants to see and Luke is someone they are tired of seeing. They have watched him for 4 preseasons and spot duty in about 5 games. No one talks to the guy on the end of the bench but the guys on the end of the bench and those guys are no longer with the team or their input doesn’t matter because they aren’t getting in the game anyways.

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know that anyone has a rapport with McCown

He hasnt been a starter, he’s as much a journeyman as Leftwich, and barring a big injury to Freeman, McCown probably isn’t here past 2010 (contract expires). Remember, Bryant is all but new, Winslow is new, Ward is new, those are three key guys that are new to the team. They have allegiance to no one, not McCown or Leftwich.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lets look at the offense of scheme...

Hey everybody it seems like there is a lot of tension between the McCown and the Lefty supporters of the world but I have a different perspective. This offense will be a RUN heavey offense which will rely on the play action pass to produce results. Defenses won’t even look at who’s throwing the ball first anyways….its going to be how to attack the O’line and being able to stop the RB. The problem with that is look at who we have a the RB position…D-ward a respected player who even though shared time with 3 running backs still broke the 1,000 yard mark….oh yea and ran in a smiliar type scheme….next is Ernest Graham who i believe gain some respect from his unselfish perfromences at RB and FB but nonthaless solid…Caddy who even though had a major knee injury again last season silenced a lot of critics by that performance against the dolphins….and finally Clifton Smith a PRO-BOWL caliber player who can mix it up. Now put that together with an offensive line who has plyed together for a few years who are also talented…..In my opinion its the running game that will make or break the season. I almost gurantee that our QB won’t be attempting a pass unless its play-action or combine with a bootleg or rollout. Guess what…. when the QB does any of these moves he will have extra time anyways and the reads will be a lot easier. If the running game doesn’t work then i don’t care who you put back there it won’t be that succesful. Now the way i see it….I don’t care who you put back there its no use without a decent and i mean at least 4-5 yrds per carry avg. for game. I beleive that Jags and Morris called regular pass plays to evaluate each QB. In the grand scheme of things its just pre-season when the regular season comes around i call that Lefty will throw no more then 25 passes ( given that the run is affective) and at least half of them will be off of bootlegs, play action etc. and these plays actually are designed not only to go down field but to give the QB a little more time any way. So maybe that long wind won’t matter after all? Let me know what you think guys….

by bucsfan4life on Sep 1, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I like the points you made, you made alot of great points

but I haveto say, leftwich will not be doing any bootlegs. LOL. He doesn’t have the mobility for that but I do think that he will be a big asset to the Playaction game. I truely believe that he will revive his career this year, this is a system that is set up for a guy like him. What I mean is that this system calls for a big arm, a confident guy and an aggressive guy. I have the most confidence in Leftwich leading the two minute drill. He has been in the situation before and He did it vs the Titans to assure me he has the ability. I also believe that he is the best guy to complete some 3rd downs because he will throw to the sticks. I am excited and can’t wait until he proves all of the doubters wrong. LETS GO LEFTWICH!!! LETS GO BUCS!!!

by tbbuc4 on Sep 1, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

play action manning

here’s a question that just popped in my head. Why does Indy play so much play-action. If I was any defender, I would pray that he would just hand the ball over and not make me look silly. I would stick to my zone/guy until it was known that he got the ball..

just a thought

by miracles83 on Sep 2, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

lets look at the offense of scheme...

Sorry guys typo in th end there. The last sentence is supposed to say “So mybe that long wine up of Byron’s wont matter after all”

by bucsfan4life on Sep 1, 2009 11:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Leftwich was the right choice

I sadly say the only bucs game i have been to was 2007 at the GA dome.

The bucs won, but i vividly remember Leftwich being boo’d off the field and being replaced by Joey Harrington for the Falcons. Thats a mark on the record that no one would want.

Here’s to hoping he has progressed his game and will do well for the bucs.

One more question, why haven’t we gotten to see more of Josh Johnson?

by ATL_BUC on Sep 2, 2009 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good point tbbuc4....

Yeah Lefty’s bootlegs will probably look atrosious but hey give the guy credit he lost weight in the offseason and i’m not sayin he’s Micheal Vick but Peyton Manning is def. not a burner and I’ve seen him run a couple bootlegs that roll out opposite the flow of the fake run come back side and find an open guy. As far as ATL-BUC’s question about why haven’t we’ve seen Josh Johnson…Beats da hell outta me! The dude threw 44td’s against 1int. for crying out loud ( o.k. he played in div.II ) but he also was the most valuable player in the senior bowl back before he was drafted. I would like to see a wildcat formation outta him cuz the kid runs a 4.5 forty. I believe that he and J. Freemen should compete next year for the starting JOB. Just my opinion.

by bucsfan4life on Sep 2, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What would you do?

Lets play Coach here…what would you do with young guys behind the vets? It seems like th efront office is a little scared of letting go of J.J. but lets remember that Rah did’nt neccesarily picked this guy…He wanted Freeman from the start. Given the fact that J.J. has one more year under his belt should suggest that he’s farther ahead then Freemen right? Wisdom says so ( and also logically) funny that i never hear about J.J. when looking the bucs up somewhere like ESPN.Com but he’s well known through the local fan base….also putting him on the practice squad could mean he can be scooped up elsewhere. The fact of the matter is shortley after the titans game he did have some time with the ones during practice. Sounds like he passed the evaluation because in Rah’s last press conference when asked if J.J. would make the team he asnswered with a smile " Probably" seems like he might give Freemen a run for his money next year for the starting job. I believe that you never know what you have until you play them hint hint Tom Brady….who i believe was a 7th round pick?

by bucsfan4life on Sep 2, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brady was a 6th, but point well taken

The problem with having two young QB’s who have little to no game time is only one of them will be given the chance to succeed. Only one QB will be on the field, which means one of those QB’s will have stunted development (most likely). Freeman has the backing of the current front office, and the money tied up as opposed to JJ who is a Gruden guy with not much money tied up in him.

I wanted to see JJ get a chance, and while he performed against the Titans, it was pretty “meh” since then. He’ll get a chance Friday night, and may play his way into a roster spot or trade. Keeping 4 QB’s is tough though, not sure I want to do that (again).

He may very well compete with Freeman, but Freeman, based on above factors has a leg up. Tie goes to the money.

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by Buc Wild on Sep 2, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good Point

Honestley I hope the kid does well but i guess thats the price you pay anointing a " Franchise QB" i mean look at Peyton Manning when he first came out….Holy Crap! The dude is what he is now because of the experience but the colts did’nt do anything his first year. Wether its Freemen or not I just want decent play you know. I hope that Freemen comes out next year and takes the bull by the horns and plays well because Tampa has’nt had a franchise QB since…..well you know what i’m talking about. Your right about the ties being different in the fact that Rah got Freemen Gruden got J.J. Money also will play into it also but hey if we are doing a so called " youth movement" then having either of these guys competing next year for the job would not be a bad thing. Judging by the way the offense will be ran our QB just needs to manage the game and take few shots down field when givin the opprotunity.

by bucsfan4life on Sep 2, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He made his bed now sleep in it!

The reason why Gruden was going to make Josh Johnson the starter is because he lit up Monte Kiffin’s defense everyday on the scout team.

What I don’t get is why they would even draft a qb! JJ was toastin Raheem’s db’s ALL DAY, as many witnesses will attest who are still on the roster and/or staff.

They could’ve drafted either Maclin or Ziggy Hood.

At first, I was rooting for Raheem, but his first major decision as head coach (the draft) was not only poor judgement, it was just plain stupid.

Most people say the raiders made the biggest draft mistake. I disagree, I give that title to the Buc’s. Although the raiders clearly drafted the wrong player, they at least addressed a need. The LAST thing the buc’s needed was a qb

by Jreal on Sep 3, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

where can i find this...

Hey Jreal where did you get info. like that in your last post? Next well done on the post because i wasn’t sure about the draft pick either…like i said before play what you got and see what happens.

by bucsfan4life on Sep 3, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs