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Closing the Book on Gruden

 

I can remember over the past few seasons, so many of my friends saying that Bucs needed to fire Jon Gruden. Like a cow mooing, over and over again, “Fire Gruden!” “Fire Gruden!” Well, they finally got their wish and Gruden is gone.

I remember thinking that if Gruden ever was fired, he would be the first coach off the market as another team would snatch him up immediately, so I was never on the “fire Gruden” bandwagon.

 It didn’t happen that way for some reason and Gruden took a job in the booth for Monday Night Football.

I remember after Gruden survived the first wave of firings after the Super Bowl this season, I thought he was safe, but one Friday night, the Bucs pulled the trigger and Gruden was gone. My initial reaction was that letting him go was a mistake because it was apparent that the only coaches that were available were retreads like Marty Schottenheimer or a complete unknown.

But as the night progressed, I started creating a mental list of Gruden Gaffes – things that really just pissed me right off as a fan.  That night I drove from Land O’ Lakes to Channelside (Downtown Tampa) to meet my friends. By the time I was in the parking garage, I was convinced it was the right decision.

Now Gruden gets boatloads of credit for winning Super Bowl XXXVII, and don’t tell me he did it with Tony Dungy’s team. The only reason Dungy DIDN’T win was because he was fiercely loyal to Clyde Christianson and refused to fire him in favor of a real offensive coordinator (side note: guess who is offensive coordinator for the Colts this season? Yep! Smilin’ Clyde. I don’t think there has been a figurehead position like his this side of the Queen Elizabeth). So in my house, Gruden got a pass, for a bit anyhow. But one afternoon, in an effort to avoid doing actual work, I started writing down what was Gruden’s undoing.

I filled two pages.

Here’s the Top 5 in detail:

1.       The Wide Receiver Debacle (2008): Joey Galloway is hurt in the first week of the 2008 season with what is called a “sprain” but is later revealed to be a “break” in his ankle. In steps former cast-off Antonio Bryant who was not even in the NFL last season. Bryant grabs the opportunity with both hands and racks of 83 catches for 1,248 yards and 7 touchdowns. Galloway is never a factor again despite numerous public claims that he is 100% healthy. Bryant was essentially the ONLY receiver on the team because no other Bucs receiver had more than 500 yards receiving. We were told that Galloway wasn’t on the field because he played the same position as Bryant.  Now, we’ve all heard for the past seven years is that Gruden is an “offensive guru” blah, blah. It would seem to me that someone who was a true innovator would figure out a way to get his two most productive receivers on the field at the same time. The Dolphins figured out how to get two running backs on the field at the same time (Ronnie Brown and Ricky Williams) by using the Wildcat Formation. In over 50 years of football, someone at sometime must have figured out how to get two receivers who played the same position on the field at some point.

 

2.       The Quarterback Collection (2007):  In our house, we have three bathrooms. Sometimes we run out of toilet paper because we use one bathroom more than another and we cannibalize the supply in the other rooms, and not realizing that we’re completely out until it is too late. When I go to the store, I tend to overbuy. Well, that’s what Gruden did in 2007 after quarterback Chris Simms got off to a dismal start and eventually left his spleen on the field in Carolina (how the offensive line was not charged with attempted murder, I still cannot figure out). Left with journeyman Tim Rattay and rookie Bruce Gradkowski, the Bucs went in the tank. Well, in a fit of “overbuying,” Gruden stocked up on quarterbacks (as I type this, the “toilet paper” analogy is quite fitting) loading the roster with the likes of Jeff Garcia, Luke McCown, Brian Griese, Gradkowski, Simms, and even traded for Jake Plummer (who refused to report).   Now, I can understand being prepared for injury, but Gruden took it to a level that was almost laughable. Every time a quarterback was released from another team, Gruden and the Bucs were listed in the media as being “interested.” As it turned out, the Bucs went to the playoffs, but none of the six ended up being world-beaters. The only thing accomplished was Gruden’s name was tarnished just a little bit further.

 

3.       John Lynch (2004): I know it’s tough to part with long-time players, but the way safety John Lynch (NFL Network’s #10 Hardest Hitter in history) was jettisoned will forever be a sore spot for Buc fans. Lynch was 33 when the Bucs released him after claiming he failed a physical after having neck surgery to help alleviate some of “stinger” injuries that he had (no doubt as a result of his teeth-rattling hits). General Manager Bruce Allen tried to sell the story that Lynch was too beat up to justify his $4.1 million salary and released him unceremoniously. Lynch signed with the Broncos prior to the 2004 season. Lynch proved Allen and Gruden wrong by going to the Pro Bowl four times after leaving Tampa Bay (2004-2007). Lynch got his revenge in Week 4 of the 2004 season as the Broncos came to Tampa and beat the Bucs 16-13 sending them to an 0-4 start. Next to Doug Williams and Steve Young, Lynch’s departure might be the worst assessment of a player’s potential and future performance.

 

 

4.       The Chinese Playbook (2002-2008): Gruden’s playbook was legendary for being an indecipherable hodge-podge of loosely connected adjectives and codes that only made sense to him. Running back Michael Bennett had a hard time getting on the field after he was acquired from the Chiefs in a trade because it was said that the playbook was too difficult to understand. NFL Films has videos of Gruden screaming at the top of his lungs at quarterback Chris Simms and Brad Johnson because they couldn’t remember the laundry list of terms in a single play. I can understand that you want to make your offense your own, but when it’s universally known that your playbook is just slightly less comprehensible than the Torah, you need to make some changes so you can get your talent on the field and out of the classroom.

 

5.       Sickening Devotion to the Wrong Players (2002-2008): In a twist of irony, Dungy was done in by his devotion to his less than stellar offensive coordinator. I guess it was only natural that Gruden would develop some kind of attachment to some personnel that was bad for his reputation as well. Just this past year, the Bucs rushed running back Cadillac Williams back on the field despite having Warrick Dunn and Michael Bennett available after Earnest Graham went down with a season-ending ankle sprain. Rather than use Dunn and Bennett, Gruden and Allen released Bennett and activated Williams from the PUP list. Bennett didn’t even clear waivers as he was sucked up by the Chargers. Gruden then leaned on the aging Dunn toward the end of the season essentially wearing him out, while Williams was used sparingly to get him accustomed to the field again. Then Williams blows out the other knee and is lost for the year. The Bucs went from three viable backs to one. Everyone was rooting for Williams to come back healthy and his recovery was nothing short of miraculous, but rushing him back to the field was the wrong move, especially with the Bucs’ depth at the position. Another example: despite a multitude of sub-par seasons, Gruden and Allen never made a legitimate effort to replace (or even get some competition for) Michael Clayton. It’s well-known that Clayton had a stellar rookie season, but that season is the exception, not the norm.  Since his rookie season, Clayton has yet to match his touchdown output from his rookie season (Seven TDs in 2004. Two total since). And what’s worse, Clayton’s lone touchdown going into the 2008 season had to be reviewed in order to stand – it wasn’t even a “clean” catch. Allen and Gruden stubbornly handicapped the offense by never replacing (or attempting to replace) Clayton. It might be that Gruden thought Clayton was a tight end because Gruden was never shy about signing body after body to play tight end, sometimes getting three on the field at the same time (Hey! Don’t they all play the same position?).  And for some inexplicable reason, Clayton was RE-SIGNED AFTER GRUDEN AND ALLEN DEPARTED! Why? He might be secretly married to a Glazer.

Honorable Mention:

Dexter Jackson (2008):  The Bucs were in need of a playmaker at wide receiver (and in other news, water is still wet). The closest the Bucs ever came to bolstering the wide receiving corps was the drafting of Appalachian State wide receiver Dexter Jackson in the second round of the draft. Gruden then drops the news that Jackson WON’T be used as a wide receiver, but will be given the opportunity to return kicks and punts. Well, that was a pick well spent. As it turns out, Jackson had worse hands than Clayton, but even more maddening was his intense fear of contact (you picked the wrong career, Dex). So, Allen and Gruden drafted a wide receiver who doesn’t play wide receiver, and subsequently is more afraid of contact than Samuel L. Jackson in Unbreakable. It’s the one draft pick that Matt Millen can laugh at.



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I don't think

You can blame it all on Gruden. At least the draft’s you can’t

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 19, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Was Jon Gruden not in Tampa between 2003-2008?

Was his GM not a hand picked guy in 2004-2008? If they weren’t the ones deciding on players in the draft, who was?

Gruden’s as guilty as anyone else in the front office. Regardless of whether it was the pick decision or the teaching techniques when these guys broke in — he had an involvement. If not, pencil that in as another item on the list.

The Raw Charge -- the Tampa Bay Lightning weblog at SB Nation.

by John Fontana on Jun 22, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See below: Callme

The glazers screwed up our draft by giving oakland our 1st and 2nd rounders for gruden. Callmetaternuts pretty much covered the draft

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 22, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Liked most of your post...but not # 5

I don’t think you can say they rushed Caddy back to the NFL too fast…When he got here he looked great…a greatness that the likes of Michael Bennett couldn’t have replicated…and usually when you say that someone was rushed back too fast It’ll be ‘cause they re-injured or aggravated the past injury, but it wasn’t even the same leg (don’t get me wrong…Caddy’s injury, for me, was the single worst thing that happened last year…so much so that I almost cried ’cause I knew immediately that the same thing happened again).

by Tetris on Jun 20, 2009 2:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You missed one point about #2.

During his tenure as coach in Tampa, Gruden never had a No. 1 or No. 2 pick at quarterback, with Simms in the third round, Gradkowski in the sixth, and Josh Johnson in the fifth. In hindsight, Cadillac over Aaron Rodgers was definitely a big miss for the Bucs.

Give the new front office credit in drafting Josh Freeman. They’re not afraid to take a risk in trying to pick up their own signal caller.

by V. Money on Jun 20, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's not a fair statement really

Don’t forget, Gruden didnt have a first rounder for two years do to what we gave up to get him. It also matters how the Front Office valued the QB’s available. You dont take a first rounder just for the sake of taking a QB. And no one took Aaron Rodgers until #20, we picked at #5, so we obviously weren’t the only teams with issues on Rodgers. Looking back on Gruden’s tenure, here were the first round QB’s available when we picked

2002- no pick in 1st or 2nd round
2003 – no pick in 1st round, last pick in 2nd round
2004 – we picked 15, J.P. Losman went 22nd and Matt Schaub went in the 3rd round. Looks like the front office did alright here with only Losman going off the board in rounds 1 and 2.
2005 – We picked at 5. Aaron Rodgers went 20, and Jason Campbell went 21. But no one was really high on either guy. Charlie Frye and Andrew Walter went early in round 3.
2006 – We picked 23, Kellen Clemens and Tarvaris Jackson were the next two to go
2007 – We picked 4. Brady Quinn was the next QB at pick 22. The jury is still out on him. Kevin Kolb, John Beck and Drew Stanton were the next 3
2008 – We picked 20, Chad Henne and Brian Brohm were next QBs in late in round 2.

You want to use today’s data to argue with how the team drafted a few years back. The issue is, no one knew on any of these players how they would turn out. No one knew Caddy would blow out his knee twice. Teams can’t re-draft 3 years after the fact.

I don’t see any names that jump out there. Now, I do have an issue with Gruden for never even picking a guy (free agent, draft pick etc) and sticking with him, trying to groom him, but I cant blame him for not drafting one in the first round. If you dont value a player that high, you dont take him. Look at the 49ers. By your logic we would applaud them for taking Alex Smith and trying to develop him when most talking heads were saying he wasnt worth it. Just because you have a pick and their is a QB available doesnt mean you take him.

Conversely, in the first 2 rounds, since 2004 (since we had no picks in 2002 and 2003), here are the guys the front office picked:

Michael Clayton, Cadillac, Ruud, Davin Joseph, Trueblood, Gaines Adams, Sears, Talib, Dexter Jackson. The skill position players didnt turn out very well, but you could even argue that Clayton’s rookie year and Caddy’s rookie year were pretty good. We had good players, you cant predict non-recurring injuries. The other guys, the Ruud’s, Joseph’s etc, I’ll take those guys any day of the week. Particularly when we are blaming Gruden for not drafting (best case scenario) an Aaron Rodgers. Look at those other names, Tarvaris Jackson? Pass, Kellen Clemens? Pass. You dont draft a QB just to draft one. That’s why when you find one, its like striking gold. Go ask San Diego fans and Colts fans about that one.

by Buc Wild on Jun 20, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course you don't draft one just to draft one!

With any prospect, quarterbacks especially, you have to do a lot of homework. If you’re going to spend a lot of money on a No. 1, regardless of what position he plays, you’d want to figure out just what you’d get for the money.

And yes, I was aware that they didn’t have first rounders because of the Gruden trade.

What concerned me about the situation was that the front office didn’t even try to find and develop a quality guy. It’s no coincidence that the revolving door at quarterback and the failure to successfully build off of the Super Bowl went hand-in-hand. With the sole exception of the Montana-Young 49ers, you can’t really plug an average Joe in at QB and expect consistent success. Ask the Ravens how that worked before Flacco.

You’ll never find the face of the franchise behind center if you don’t take a risk in getting him in the first place. That, combined with new regimes usually finding “their guy” to start and the success of rookies leading their teams just last year, was the perfect storm for Freeman to arrive.

by V. Money on Jun 20, 2009 7:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bad choice in bringing up the Ravens

Where do you think Kyle Boller got drafted? First round, 19th pick. They got suckered in becuase he could throw a football through the goalposts from the 50’s while on his knees (seriously).

You’re right, you cant often throw an “average Joe” in at QB and be successful, but there just arent that many franchise QB’s around. We can all name at least a dozen teams that dont have a franchise QB and havent the last few years (Carolina, Arizona until Warner, San Fran, Cleveland, Buffalo, Miami, NY Jets, KC, Oakland). All those teams either dont have a long term franchise guy, or tried to find one in the draft early and it hasnt worked out. Youre blaming Gruden for being in the majority here. He couldve taken a QB and tried to groom him, but instead of doing that, weve got a few above average pieces like Ruud, Joseph, Talib, Sears etc.

For the record, I wasnt ever a big Gruden fan. I cant see Im sorry to have seen him go, but at the same time, I think what he is saddled with can at times be unfair, like this. I dont blame him for not drafting and succeeding with a quarterback, but I do blame him and Allen for not sticking with a QB, when it was possible. I think you have a valid point if you remove the fact that we didnt draft one, and instead said we didnt have one period.

by Buc Wild on Jun 20, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is that so?

Kyle Boller didn’t end up as a franchise guy, but Ozzie Newsome was on the right track. A lot of QB’s in any round will fail, but you’re usually much more likely to find a guy in the top rounds than in the bottom. Tom Brady is one of the very rare exceptions that proves the rule. To be fair, Gruden did have a solid performer in Rich Gannon while in Oakland, and he deserves some brownie points for that, even if Al Davis was, is, and always has been the puppet master there.

At the end of the day, we can agree to disagree about what Gruden did right or wrong. But, from my perspective, I see the quarterback issue as a bigger part of Gruden’s demise in Tampa than meets the eye.

by V. Money on Jun 21, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To look at the projected 2009 starters

here is where each starting QB was picked.

Tampa – McCown (4th Round), have two first rounders on bench (leftwich and freeman)
Atlanta – Ryan (1st Round), prior to Ryan was Vick (1st round) and Schaub (3rd round)
Carolina – Delhomme (undrafted)
New Orleans – Brees (2nd round), Aaron Brooks was a 4th rounder
St Louis – Bulger (6th round) prior to Bulger was undrafted Warner
San Fran – Hill (undrafted), Alex Smith (1st round) is on bench
Seattle – Hasselback (6th round), Seneca Wallace is other QB (4th round)
Arizona – Warner (undrafted), Leinart is on the bench (1st rounder)
NY Giants – Eli Manning (1st rounder)
Philadelphia – McNabb (1st rounder)
Washington – Jason Campbell (1st rounder)
Dallas – Romo (undrafted)
Chicago – Cutler (1st rounder), prior to Cutler was Grossman (1st rounder) and Orton (4th rounder)
Green Bay – Rodgers (1st rounder), Favre before that (2nd rounder)
Minnesota – Jackson (2nd round), Favre (maybe, 2nd round)
Detroit – Culpepper (1st rounder), Stafford (1st rounder)
Kansas City – Cassel (7th round)
San Diego – Rivers (1st round)
Denver – Orton (4th round) or Simms (3rd round)
Oakland – Russell (1st round) or Garcia (undrafted)
Cleveland – Anderson (6th round) or Quinn (1st round)
Pittsburgh – Roethlisberger (1st round)
Baltimore – Flacco (1st rounder)
Cincinnatti – Palmer (1st rounder)
Bills – Edwards (3rd round)
Dolphins – Pennington (1st rounder) with Henne set to take over (2nd round)
Patriots – Brady (6th round)
Jets – Clemens (2nd rounder)
Colts – Manning (1st rounder)
Tennessee – Collins (1st rounder), Young (1st rounder)
Houston – Schaub (3rd round)
Jaguars – Garrard (4th round)

Of the 32 projected starters in 2009, 15 were first rounders, 17 were not. Pretty even balance. Of the 15 first rounders, 6 would probably be considered stars (both Mannings, Big Ben, Rivers, McNabb, and possibly Palmer) with 5 non-1st rounders on that list (Brady, Brees, Romo, Warner, and Favre. If you look at 2008 starters, the numbers stay the same, just with some names mixed around.

I just can’t blame Gruden for not drafting a QB in the first round and installing him in the mix. Newsome MAY have gotten it right this time around, but they wasted a high pick on Boller. Those missed high picks hurt teams for years to come.

Again, I’m not defending some of Gruden’s actions/plans, and the QB issue, particularly stability, can and did hurt the team. But bypassing such “studs” as Losman, Henne, and Kolb can hardly be put on him. You’d also have to give more off that blame to the guy calling the shots, typically the GM Bruce Allen. Gruden might have had some input, but let’s not lay the non-drafting of a QB on the head coach, assign that to the GM if you think they screwed up.

by Buc Wild on Jun 21, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

VMoney

You do bring up some valid points. We’d have to go back and look at 20 years of data to see if you are more likely to find a starter in the first round or later. Looking at 2 years won’t really give us a historical perspective. But at least for 08 and 09, 15 first rounders, 3 2nd rounders and 14 3rd rounders – undrafted).

You can kind of relate this to Detroit. The various head coaches there weren’t necessarily world beaters, but you can’t lay the blame at their feet for the WR loaded roster Millen built. The GM constructed the gameplan in terms of draft and free agency. The HC has input, but usually the GM pulls the trigger, for better or worse. Seems to be the same in Gruden/Allen’s case.

I don’t disagree with you on Gruden in other facets, but the draft, particularly when attempting to look backwards becomes very subjective. At the time of those drafts, I dont think I EVER was upset with who we picked based on the QB’s left on the board. If they did pass on a QB, they didn’t have them high enough on the board, which seems to be the correct call.

by Buc Wild on Jun 21, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent point
You’ll never find the face of the franchise behind center if you don’t take a risk in getting him in the first place. That, combined with new regimes usually finding "their guy" to start and the success of rookies leading their teams just last year, was the perfect storm for Freeman to arrive.

The only item to add is that while you can’t find the franchise guy unless you take him, it’s important to wait for the guy you feel is right for the team/system. No need to rush out and take a guy just to tell the talking heads “Look, we drafted a #1 QB even though he ultimately will suck. We tried, right?”

But with the NFL being such a copy cat league, the success of Ryan and Flacco, the new staff in Tampa, and Morris’ history with Kansas State, it was the perfect storm. I just hope that Freeman turns out to be a great QB and is given the time and opportunity to do so. Whether we agree with the pick is irrelevant, he’s a Buc now and we want him to do well, no sense in wasting a first rounder.

by Buc Wild on Jun 21, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is one thing that Freeman has going for him...

…the offensive line he has is better than the ones many other Buc QB’s have had in the past.

Ryan and Flacco had intangibles, but they also succeeded in large part due to their linemen, Flacco got to play with a future HOFer in Jonathan Ogden, and the team drafted a top-notch guy in Michael Oher as a potential replacement. Ryan had an experienced center in Todd McClue and a talented teammate in fellow rook Sam Baker.

And while you don’t take a guy just to take a guy, if you’re a GM, it’s usually better to pick the best talent and fit the system around it than stick to your system and try to shove guys into your mold. So if you do your homework on a prospect and you really like what you see, but he’s not a West Coast or spread guy or whatever, take him and worry about the playbook later. Otherwise, you’ll have to wait another season or several before the next guy comes up.

That’s why the Buccaneers traded up from 19 to 17; they were worried that Denver would grab Freeman and that they’d have to wait several rounds to take a less talented/less experienced guy.

By the way, it’s helpful to look at QB’s as first and second day prospects, instead of firsties and everybody else. Looking at the top two rounds alone in the past 20 drafts or so, we get names like Brett Favre, the Mannings, Donovan McNabb, Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Ryan and Flacco last year, Ben Roethlisberger, and Troy Aikman (off the top of my head) who have all experienced success in some form or another.

Heck, the Bucs aren’t new to the rookie QB thing themselves. Shaun King might have been more of a game manager, what with a dominant defense and Trent Dilfer’s injury, but the team was still one step from the Super Bowl with him.

by V. Money on Jun 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum...

Ogden retired before Flacco played his rookie year. Mea culpa.

by V. Money on Jun 21, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All good points,

but is there a singular talent that Gruden/Allen missed out on by not making the move? Granted, we can argue that any guy they took wouldnt have played as Gruden wasnt a fan of the youngster, but I still look back and don’t see a missed opportunity.

I’m hopeful Freeman pans out just due to the money and status thrust upon him. I don’t root for any Bucs to actively fail. But with a new regime in place and the points we’ve already laid out, the new front office took a chance.

But this isn’t an argument for or against Freeman, Morris or Dominik, its trying to look back at Gruden and assign him blame for not selecting a QB in 2002-2008. I still maintain that in regards to the draft, the right calls were made. We did miss out on a few free agents that we could have developed, but we are where we are now. Gruden is gone, for better or worse, and I’ll support Morris, Dominik and Freeman until I have reason to do otherwise. Doesn’t mean we can’t pan the decisions that were made and constructively analyze them.

This will be another point (the Freeman pick) that will be looked back at in 5,10,15 years with either great praise, or a multitude of scorn by Bucs fans. So is the life of an armchair quarterback.

by Buc Wild on Jun 21, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really? A Jon Gruden Blog? 5 months later?

1)WR debacle? Dude under gruden the Bucs have had a 1000 yard receiver HOW many years? you need to check yourself on that one. WRs THRIVED here under Gruden, and had no one to blame but themselves.

2)You really think we got TOO many QBs? forget what happened in 06? Seems to me EVERY YEAR Jon Gruden was here, a QB could not finish a full complete season except 2003 Brad Johnson (and we ranked 10th in offense that year). Still blame him for stock piling? and dont bring up other peoples jokes about the guy. You should know better as a bucs fan, shame on you for joining in.

3)and Im so sick about the John Lynch thing.
Let me tell you something about John Lynch. the Broncos took a BIG GAMBLE, and it paid off.

a) Tony DUngy needed a safety, he didnt sign him
b)Love Smith could have recommended him at the time…Nope
c)The godfather of lynch’s kids, Herman Edwards, passed on him too.

and..the PRO BOWL IS A POPULARITY CONTEST! Thats why you go a few years too late and stay a few years too long!

4)Ok , given, but you liked that playbook after the NFC championship game in 02 didnt you?

5)Who cares if Bennett was picked up by the chargers, hes an idiot, who cant figure out the offense, and doesnt know how long to stick around a Denny’s with Anthony Davis.

Over all Lame post, but its only a D because you didnt bring up that stupid Gruden won with Dungy’s team.

BucStop.com a new blog for Bucs Fans <
Where else would you stop for everything Buccaneers?

by Niko Houllis on Jun 20, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Response.

I just read your response. It really sounds like you have no issues with any of the 5.

1. I’m not sure how “yardage” became an issue, but my only use of actual yards was drawing the comparison between how far and away Antonio Bryant was from the rest of the receivers. And how can you say “wide receivers thrived under Gruden?” There has CONSISTENTLY been a SINGLE threat, year after year! It was Clayton in his rookie year, a few years of success with Galloway, and thenBryant. Not since Keyshawn/McCardell had the Bucs had a true dual-threat at WR. That’s it. Everyone else is selling Kenmores at Best Buy. My issue is that when Gruden finally had TWO HEALTHY WRs, he was too short-sighted to figure out how to use them both on the field at once.

2. Sounds like you agree with me on the “too many QBs.” I just used that year as an example because that was the season it seemed to become such a sports-page-joke.

3. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. Okay, fine. So you’re saying that the best safety in Bucs history went to the Pro Bowl in another league 4 years straight because of popularity? Four years straight? So Derrick Brooks went 11 times because he was popular? C’mon. You saw Lynch play. You’d never make that statement about him when he was a Buc.

4. The playbook’s plays were not the problem. Understanding the playbook is another story. And let’s remember, in 2002, the Bucs were largely devoid of catastrophic injuries to any major skill position players. The only loss I can think of was Booger MacFarland. The Bucs never had to rely on a player to come in via trade or free agency WITHOUT A TRAINING CAMP to learn EVERYTHING in a week.

5. So Bennett got grabbed by the Chargers… point is he was so valuable to SOMEONE he didn’t clear waivers. Bennet was a Pro Bowler in 2000. This is a guy who has real NFL experience and Gruden’s wacko playbook. There is so much evidence that Gruden has developed an offense that requires some serious study if you’re going to grasp it in a hurry. Point is, he was in shape. He was healthy. He had ZERO question marks, while Cadillac (bless his heart) had a cloud of questions swirling around him when he took the field. The Bucs should have IR-ed Cadillac, signed a scrub to be 3rd string, and let Dunn and Bennett split the carries. And this isn’t hindsight. It’s the course of action that had the LEAST amount of uncertainty.

You bullet-pointed 5 things and really made no convincing argument proving anything wrong or incorrect. You’re only true criticism was my post was “lame” and, as illustrated, once you start calling names, you’re out of arguments. Often, you referenced things that I didn’t even reference. I don’t think you comprehended my post very well. I think my rebuttal pretty much spells out how badly you failed to process the original post.

by HeyItsAdam on Jun 22, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey I do APOLOGIZE...

if I came across as too forward.

I was just talking a little smack…

Its all a good discussion, I just assumed this was a post for an audition for the job, and in that case I would have liked to have seen a more current topic than a JG one, thats all.

Peace!

BucStop.com a new blog for Bucs Fans <
Where else would you stop for everything Buccaneers?

by Niko Houllis on Jun 24, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any Which Way You Can

Hey Adam, I’m not a huge Clyde Christiansen Fan, and I’m not here to break your balls, but a little fact checking isn’t going to kill you. Christiansen was the OC for ’01, what kind of loyalty was it that you were referring to exactly? Before him it was Steckel, and before that it was Shula.

Dungy goes so far to say that he regrets letting the Glazers push him into firing Shula in the first place and that he thought that having three OCs in three years was hurting the team.

What’s more, Christiansen was with Dungy from year one with the Colts. All those records set by WRs catching from Manning? Christiansen was WR. That year of four WRs w/ 1k yards each? Christiansen. Touchdown record? Christiansen. Viable WR raking in enviable numbers even when Harrison was out shooting at dudes in his bar? Christiansen. Superbowl (not to mention 240 yards through the air in the rain)? … Well you get the idea.

Was he the only reason? Nah, they were talented players and other good coaches but my points are these:

1) The dude was there every single year as a WR and offensive assistant. That’s not a coincidence.

2) Dungy preached consistency, was allowed to actually practise it under Irsay and managed to win with a team he built over the course of five years, not one he mostly inherited from the year before.

2a) Just so you don’t think I’m hating on Gruden, cause I actually likes him for the most part it takes all kinds of chutzpa to come in with a team you did NOT build and manage a championship with only some minor tweaks to the roster.

3) Fact checking just isn’t that hard, c’mon man :)

by WordySanchez on Jun 21, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Right… he was OC in 01 and the Bucs laid an egg in the playoffs. 02 he was gone and in came Gruden. Dungy didn’t want to can Clyde at the end of 01. Personally, I think Steckle should have stuck around – best offensive ranking EVER in Bucs history under his watch.

by HeyItsAdam on Jun 23, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gone and good ridance.

here’s a clue… Why does a genius need to spend 12+ hours a day figuring out his team’s offensive scheme and win only half the time? never win a playoff game with his own outfitted teams? That really doesn’t sound like true genius to me. Over rated? I’d buy that though.

When you sideline your best producing WR because his ego is equaling your own.. er., K Johnson. Or outright lie to another about getting them a better contract the following year, K McCardell. When you can’t see talent and ability in making draft choices eg., B Sims, D Jackson. When you allow a stellar defensive squad to flounder due to neglect or eg., ‘poorly selected talent from above… When’you have to have a particular player type to make your scheme work, or by contrast, can not adapt your plans to that of the talent level you have on tap… (that’s just cookie cutting coaching and we all can do that!)… eg.n Charlie Gardner, tim Brown, (which Gruden brought with him and were well past their playing times.. BTW) When you percieve long in the tooth veterans as your mainstays such as the left tackle Petigrew, who had all the injury issues and missed most of the two seasons he was on board… When you see a complimentary back as your feature back and run him into the ground… twice… When the character of the players gets no notice.. ala Pittman, Stevens.

Well, you are likely over your head in the NFL.

If Gruden had Rich Gannon, Brett, or another top flight QB, he might still have been around. Of course so too, would most any other pro head coach in the NFL.

The key to discerning what a real talented head coach is about is easy… can he spot talent? Can he improve their level of it? Will his relationship with his team enable them to go to the wall for him every time, or does his players want to play for him? …and can he be in the mix for a championship more often than not?

Also If the Bucs owners had allowed some money to be spent along the way, perhaps Gruden might still be here… but it would be a bitter sweet thing IMO. he’s an ego maniac. Gruden used up players like sandpaper. He always preferred vets past their primes over as good talented youthful ones… so he and his crew didn’t need to ‘waste’ time coaching them up I suppose. yet when injured, and needing longer recovery periods, goaded and chastized them, privately and publicly. his lack of respect for other professionals was glaring… and his own insecurity got him to oust McKay and sneak in Allen.

Regardless of opinion, Gruden DID win a championship with someone else’s team. that team, Dungees’ team, was primed and overdue for a Lombardi trophy. All they needed was a tweak here or there in the offensive thrust to get there… that’s all Gruden did. Smoke and mirrors. Movement and mis matches were his ticket.

Let’s also be absolutely blunt here as well… if the offense had not scored one point in that Super Bowl… they still would have won it on defensive scoring alone!!

Dungee’s & Kifen’s defense won that game… not John Gruden’s offense!!

Initially this ‘new’ to the division offensive tact gave the rest of the division fits… the League too found it a bit troublesome… but not for long, did they? That too is always the case… any new offensive wrinkle gets a team ahead, but other teams catch on by the following year or about the third time they play against them, if not sooner.

I’d have fired him in ‘06, and surely by ’07s end… prior to his ’re-negotiated’ contract extension. That 20+ million would have gone a long way to reload the Bucs!!

If we’re gonna place blame, it has to ultimately reside on the Captain’s shoulders… the Glazers… they’re not out from under the microscope yet. Keeping Dominick, and escalating Morris, are as I see it a stop gap, interim, move only. The players might well respond to Morris, but the talent level isn’t there yet to compete for much of anything… ie., see Gruden/Allen fall out. Dominick too is tainted by the past seven years of Allen’s abismal eye for talent, and preponderance for over the hill vets. Not too mention the penny pinching spending habits for free agents.

For almost ever, the Bucs admin has had severe issues in picking, developing, and retaining offensive talent. Mostly due to the spend less make more financial philosophy that’s been so prominent around here. The Glazer’s changed that initially with enormous support from the Bay area, and city council
… then Soccer got in the way.

Regardless what they are saying now, that over seas’ acquisition of a soccer team changed things. You can’t ignore that one. Things changed here just before it, and definitely thereafter.

The best thing that could happen now for the Bucs is that another team in their division would sign Gruden as head coach. He’s bad for the NFL as a head coach, and worse for any players on his team.

John Gruden has some glaring personal issues. Until he addresses them, he’ll continue to be less than in the pro coaching ranks, and never achieve an ongoing winning pursuit. Players don’t have to love their head coaches to win games, but it sure helps if they want to play for them.

Over the past few years the most noticeable difference between Grudens’ teams and Dungees’ were exactly that item…. Even I could see that!

by Blindjim on Jun 22, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This

Pretty Much Man U has consumed their life and Soccer has gotten more attention than us.

We need Robots....The time is now Bud, Stern, and Goodell.
Seriously, Officiating Sucks in this Country

by Some other guy who does not care on Jun 22, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this sums it up

gruden was suppossed to be an offensive genious when we got him from oakland he never really gave us any real offensive threat! so far i like what morris is doing i predict freeman will be a star qb in my view he will be a bigger stronger version of ben rothelsburger! we have a new and much improved offense now and if we get plexico and stovall ready with his great speed we will be unstoppable. see ya gruden.

by BUCABING on Jun 22, 2009 10:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

my point was

is there nothing else to bring up but a another jon gruden post, 5 months or so after hes gone?

I wasnt trying to debate any of the points, I was offering MY take on the points.

Feel Free to post YOUR points on Bucstop.com, where Im located now.

Niko H

BucStop.com a new blog for Bucs Fans <
Where else would you stop for everything Buccaneers?

by Niko Houllis on Jun 23, 2009 8:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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