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Have the Bucs quit on Morris?

Improved hustle by the defensive line is there, if not ever so slightly...there.

More photos » by Tom Hevezi - AP

Improved hustle by the defensive line is there, if not ever so slightly...there.

In a nutshell, I think not.

I don't even think the Bucs quit on Gruden.

Its just something easy to say. When a player with a lower talent level makes a mistake, its very easy to blame on coaching. 

Its been said Quarterbacks and Coaches get too much of the glory when they win, and too much of the blame when they lose. In this case, I would have to agree. 

Does Morris get a pass for not going for it on 4th down towards the end of the game? No, that was a poor decision.

But has he lost the team?

Star-divide

I've heard alot of you say it yourselves, that your tired of a guy who 'rah rahs' it up with his players and goes out with them, etc etc. Well you can't condemn him for being so close with the guys and say he is losing the team too. That doesn't go over well. 

Does Morris get a pass for the McCown/Leftwich showdown that was for the right to start 3 games? No.

But I ask again, has he lost the team? Almost every reader on this site predicted the Bucs would win no more than 4 games. Heck, I was the one that argued with most of you when I said it would be ok. Your arguments ended up being sound. Little experience on the team, little talent, and inexperience at coaching. So why are we so upset at October 26th when the team is doing exactly what you expected? Did you not think 12 + losses would be ugly and take their toll? 

A team that is not listening to its coach is a team that falls apart. Lets take a look at how the Bucs fare against their opponents this year in a quarter by quarter analysis. 

If the Bucs were quitting on Morris, this would be a team that is competative in the early part of the games, then gets killed in the 3rd and 4th quarter. But we have only scored 14 first quarter points all year, a TD vs Washington and Carolina. In fact, this teams comes out of the game fired up, but incapable of doing anything with the low level of talent vs the other teams. 

Then the Bucs tend to get their act together in the second quarter. We've given up the least amount of points in the 2nd quarter; 45. We have scored 38, including two touchdowns in the 2nd at Buffalo.

The second least amount of points scored against comes in the 3rd quarter with 47. Not much difference? Truth is only 6 points separates the best Quarter of opponent scoring against us and the worst. We have given up 51 1st qtr points, 45 in the 2nd, 47 in the 3rd, and 50 in the 4th quarter. We are pretty even across the board in how we have given up points, not really showing a team that has 'given up' or quit. 

The 4th quarter in fact is the time we score the most...40 points. You would not expect a team that has quit on its coach to score the most amount of points in the 4th quarter. If anything, this is a team that is simply NOT quitting. 

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No quit in this team

While most of he points scored in the fourth quarter are against second-team defenses because of the large deficits the Bucs have faced, I think you’re right. There is no quit in this team. I don’t think Morris would allow that.

I saw Gaines Adams give up for three plays in which he could have made tackles against Philadelphia. What happened to him the following week? Peace out, Gaines, thanks for the effort. It’s been rough and it’ll continue to be so. Those who aren’t around to read this are the fans who have given up. Kudos to those reading this for sticking with your team through tough times.

Paul Mueller

by Paul Mueller on Oct 27, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Losing takes it's toll

and after that first pick-6 on Sunday, they did lose some pep in their step. I believe every single game is winnable, and of course everything has to go right. I also think the teams we’ve played that it’s gotten out of hand have taken their foot off the gas pedal, the Patriots could have done a lot more damage than they did. The Eagles did not, they have a chip on their shoulder, probably because we have a ring that they don’t have.

by bucnut1 on Oct 27, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Your point I agree with, but your argument is flawed.

Looking at points by quarter doesn’t tell you much. There are so many other factors that contribute to how much you are scoring in each quarter. Plus, we score a lot more in the 4th quarter because its been garbage time.

Its a tough argument to make, which is why it really frustrates me when people jump to one conclusion or another. There is almost no way to tell if a team has “quit” by watching TV or looking at stats. We don’t see the attitude in the locker room, we don’t hear what the players are saying to each other. The bottom line is we just don’t know, so to make a determination one way or another is a bit naive.

Those that would quickly jump on Morris are being ignorant. It could be his fault, but even the best coach would fail with lousy talent. I just hope the ownership doesn’t listen to over-zealous fans and idiot journalists, or else we would be stuck in a never ending spiral of “rebuilding”. You have to give the current system at least a chance to survive. When we get the players that Bates, Raheem, and Dominick want then we can evaluate the coaching.

by kurby on Oct 27, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Brooks Dunn Garcia Galloway

Gone.Ward Winslow Leftwich Freeman in. Clayton resigned (GAG) Gaines Adams gone.And all the others that I have forgotten make no mistake this IS their team these are the players they chose so let the evaluating begin.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't matter

who if anybody they are playing for they are gone replaced by the new regime this is their team their stamp is all over it, so stop whinning that it’s not their fault it’s not the players they wanted!

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well if you are criticizing the personnel decisions...

then they have at least got some right

Boom. Outta Here.

by WillisDaddy on Oct 27, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm saying

stop blaming their failure on crappy players, instead ask yourselves why are the crappy players here?

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Were we afforded the money to go get other free agents?

The glazers may have put a lock down on the spending (speculation)

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The blame moves up the ladder

not down, sick of people saying we are losing because of the players why are those players here? Who is really to blame for this mess, NOT the players they dont pick/recruit themselves do they.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All i said was maybe Raheeminik were told they couldnt go spend.

Your comment was this

stop blaming their failure on crappy players, instead ask yourselves why are the crappy players here?

My response to the question “whya re the crappy players here?” is maybe they are here because the FO was told they couldnt spend on anyone outside of Haynesworth.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They spent too much time

and too much money on the offense this year and it shows. You can win the superbowl

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh

i messed that up.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There weren't any exceptional defensive free agents out there this offseason..

besides those two, The team is trying to build through the draft and is only going to add young free agents who will still be contributing 2-3 years down the road.

Boom. Outta Here.

by WillisDaddy on Oct 27, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They went after others, though not as high profile

I’m only saying that while our players would seem to not be world class, did that come from lack of pursuit, lack of desire to spend, or ignorance to the talent level? I don’t know

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right and all

I am saying is stop blaming players when owners/management are the ones truly at fault

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's everyone's fault. No one is blameless here.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Players mental mistakes

should be blamed on players not coaches. However people can’t keep defending coaching and management by saying it’s not their team and not their players.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've never said that

and have repeatedly said that this is an organizational thing. No one person, player or thing is at fault. Everyone has contributed.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GM is a sales job

Competing bids and trying to convinve players TB is yhe rigjt fit. Dominik = Bad Salesman that has to overpay.

"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"

by UNFNOLE on Oct 27, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BFLii, the crappy players are not here because this regime put them here..

The crappy players are here from the previous regime.

We took off a layer of paint that was coming off and decided to go with what was underneath. That which was already here too!

Thats a bad analogy, but if you are going to build a new house you must destroy the old house first and start over. The Bucs are trying to become another Patriots, Steelers, Colts team, one that is in the playoffs every year.
I am doing a piece for tomorrow on this, on how the Bucs of superbowl were built.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer

“don’t cut off your hand to remove a splinter”

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 28, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The front office

already listened to the fans. They fired Gruden. They hired a guy who is a “player’s coach”. Listening to the fans is what got us into this mess in the first place. I am perfectly willing to suffer through this season if it means we are truly rebuilding. The problem is that we have nothing positive to take from this season at all (so far)

You say that people that jump on Morris are ignorant, but I think perhaps it is you who are being naive. The guy deserves a fair shake, but he also doesn’t get a blind pass for some of the bad decisions he has made during his short tenure as the head coach of this team. As I said yesterday in my fanpost “Who were you talking to Raheem?” Morris has failed at every aspect of head coaching thus far this season. From motivation, to clock management, to personnel decisions in crucial periods of the game (Clifton Smith is our two minute back… What?"

I might be a great head coach one day, but I don’t know why this city has to suffer through his growing pains. He should have taken a H.C. job at a mid-major college or learned the ropes as a defensive coordinator.

Speaking of defensive coordinators, in case you forgot Raheem was going to be the defensive coordinator this season if Gruden had not been fired. Would the defense be this bad under Raheem’s tutelage? Wouldn’t he be working with pretty much the same personnel since these are all pretty much his guys. Did Bates come in and decide that the collection of third and fourth round draft picks that comprise our defense was exactly what he wanted?

We heard all off-season that the young guys like Hayes, Black, and Piscitelli were ready to step up and start. Obviously whomever thought that was dead wrong. Black and Hayes have proven to be huge liabilities in pass coverage and Piscitelli is at best a career special teamer.

When we get the players that Bates, Raheem, and Dominick want then we can evaluate the coaching.

Where are these players going to come from? We had lots of chances in free agency to bring the type of guys that would have better fit this system but we decided to go with what we had in the storage shed.

The draft? That would all be well and good but building a team through the draft takes 3-4 seasons at least. The Morris/Dominik connection is not going to last that long unless they find a way to start winning a few games here and there. The fans will suffer through one horrific season, hell they might even suffer through two, but there is no way that they will suffer through any more than that.

by LeeCaz on Oct 27, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Morris had moved to the DC job as opposed to HC, what system do we run?

And if we run Cover 2, aren’t we better this year since it’s familiar and players fit the system? I’d say that switch alone would be worth at least 1 win.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

me too

but wasn’t it his call to switch away from the cover two? Personally if we are going to be drafting all new players for an entirely new system I wish we would install a 3-4.

by LeeCaz on Oct 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure who made the call. If he did, I don't know that I understand the move.

It’s possible he has a vision for the team that I/we don’t see yet, but the easy move would have been to stay with the Cover 2.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We didn't decide to go with "what we had"...

I seem to recall us being very aggressive going after Jonathan Vilma and Albert Haynesworth.

Boom. Outta Here.

by WillisDaddy on Oct 27, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

right

and they said no. That is the end of their effort? You don’t land the two premier players so you just give up? They did bring in Crowell, but that is it. There were lots of guys that could have come in here and improved this defense. They decided to not go after any of them.

by LeeCaz on Oct 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent point kurby,

However Im just going by the “All things being equal”….that I can only make an opinion by what I see.
Your right though, and so far, we have not heard about problems in the locker room.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, Lee . . . sort of

If I recall, you were one of the many people who said Freeman was not ready to start, so he should stay on the bench – that turning the team over to a rookie would be the worst thing to do at this point.

Well, look at the situation with Raheem Morris. Has he been perfect? Far from it. He has made a number of mistakes in his seven games as a head coach. But guess what: You can’t sit a head coach for the first eight games until he is ready. You can;t make him the backup to learn from the starter. He has to take his lumps just like a rookie player does. Some rookie quarterbacks come in and do well immediately (Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, among others in the past), while others start off slow and progress into great quarterbacks (Kurt Warner, Eli Manning, Drew Brees).

I give some of the blame to Morris. After all, he is the leader of this team; however, his sophomore year will be his defining season. If the Bucs get a high draft pick and make some moves in what will likely be an uncapped offseason, and the team still underachieves, then there is cause for concern and possible justification for making a move. I believe Bates should go first, but that’s just me.

It’s easy to point the finger when you’re 0-7. Let’s see what the Glazers are willing to spend in the offseason next year. Who knows, maybe they’ll move the Bucs to London permanently to be closer to the Glazer’s real sports interest, Manchester United.

Paul Mueller

by Paul Mueller on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

actually I was

in favor of playing Freeman after the first game Johnson played and failed to impress me. I think they should have stuck with Leftwich longer, but I think if we are going to have a guy in there learning on the job then it might as well be Freeman.

Plus, half of me thinks he is going to be a huge bust, and the sooner he fails the sooner we can move forward.

I think you just started a new conspiracy theory (or helped me come up with one) The Bucs are losing on purpose so the fan base abandons them and they can move the team to London. It’s like Major League, but with the Glazer brothers instead of the mean bitchy lady.

Before all of you jump down my throat I’m just kidding. I don’t really believe this.

You get what you pay for.

by LeeCaz on Oct 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

100% Leftwich should have been given more time, starting Johnson has been a complete waste just more proof these guys don’t have a clue.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Leftwich would have gotten killed in philly

With his much slower movement and windup combined with guys coming right up the middle, that would been a much much uglier game.

by NewLogic on Oct 27, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know man

it was pretty ugly.

You get what you pay for.

by LeeCaz on Oct 27, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Old lame excuse

that I’m tired of seeing. We don’t know what Lefwich would have done in Philly, but I will tell you that he would have been WAY faster on decision making, and he would have thrown the ball to open receivers. Considering all the pressure he was under in the 3 games he played and was only sacked twice, ya got to give the guy some credit. People are just looking for reasons to hate the guy, and he didn’t do anything wrong. Was pulled way too early, cause that Giants game was all play calling, it was horrible.

by bucnut1 on Oct 27, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Playcalling didn't lose us the Giants game

The our lines did. We couldn’t run, Leftwich didn’t have time, couldn’t stop the run. They didn’t blitz nearly as much as the Eagles and Leftwich barely managed 22 yds with 1 Int which is embarassing. No amount of quick decision making saved him then and wouldn’t have saved him in Philly. And yes, he was good at getting rid of the ball, even though some of them almost looked like fumbles.

I will give him credit and say he may have put more points on Washington, but then again a lot of things go differently and we win regardless.

by NewLogic on Oct 27, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ive said this before, and I will say it one million times until I'm blue in the face...

Play calling is a myth, its not a reason you lose or win, at least 90+ % of the time.
The problem is we the fans judge a play call based on its success.
Example= 3rd and 3 from the Opponents 39 yard line.

If you pass the ball and complete it, Great play call. If you Run the ball and make the first down, Great Play call.
If you pass the ball and dont make it.. " Why didnt you run the ball..its only 3 yards". If you ran the ball and didnt make it.." Why didnt you pass the ball, its 3 yards, not 1!"

I like to refer to my story on Bill Belichick’s defensive game plan being in the hall of fame, all becuase of a missed FG. If a FG is made, that game plan is a joke. Instead, its in the hall of fame.
Its all based on success or fail (For the most part)!

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 28, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Starting Johnson

was an exercise in futility i’m not saying we would have won those games with Freeman at the helm but it was just four games down the toilet where he could have been getting the experience he needs.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 5:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The coaching staff deemed he wasn't ready and thats the bottom line

They obviously saw that he needed to work on something and sat which is the correct choice one way or another.

by NewLogic on Oct 27, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Freeman wasn't ready

then you stick with Leftwich you dont bring in your own self anointed “career backup”

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Johnson and Leftwich

are so different that switching after 3 games hurt their chance of winning sticking with Leftwich would have yielded a win sooner. But none of that matters now it’s time to end this extended preseason farce, and let’s see what the “savior” can do.

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They were 4th in the league in offense

going into the Giants game. Not likely to stay that way long, but he actually moved the ball and scored some TD’s for us, unlike Johnson who helped the other team.

by bucnut1 on Oct 27, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point is this

If it’s Freeman time then let’s keep it Freeman I dont want to see Leftwich or Johnson again this year no matter how bad he plays!

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 27, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Freeman should not be pulled for any reason other than injury now. He’s got to learn and get the experience so hopefully next year won’t be so bad, and by year three we should be thinking playoffs. That’s a reasonable thought process.

by bucnut1 on Oct 27, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

He looked great when we had Faine and the Oline blocked, but after our line started to slide and he got less and less time until it hit a low against the Gaints in all of 3 games. Freeman was deemed not ready yet, so they put in JJ, who could obviously get the ball off with less time. Yes JJ had his ups and downs, but the play calling didn’t make it easy, the drops made it frustration, and the defense just blew everything out of the water.

by NewLogic on Oct 27, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Problem is Buffalo blitzed us right up the gap between the center and guard on the left side. No matter how hard we tried

We could not stop that, and Leftwich was shown to be true to his weakness, he cant throw the ball quick. He has too long of a wind up…thus, all kinds of problems.
The Giants simply copied this game plan and ran it even better.
We knew Phily was just as capable of doing the same thing. If Leftwich would have been in the Phily game we would have been shut out.

Now, the Carolina game? or Washington game? thats a different story.

But are we really that hungry for one win that early in the year?

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 28, 2009 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Raheem is a joke.

He’s here until Gruden signs on with another team. I fully believe that now, they are still paying Gruden’s salary, so they sign a cheap replacement coach: Raheem, he helps the players through a losing year or two, then Gruden signs on with (Dallas, Washington) take your pick, and wallah! we save enough money to get a good coach without costing the G’s more money.

I believe that this could be a viable scenario. It’s the only reason why I could see us so far under the cap, and still paying Gruden while employing this nitwit. takers?

"Put it on Film" (not on the glass)

by chiefs_55 on Oct 28, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Gruden will coach for a while,

he’s got a cake job now, no stress, gets to spend time with his family, and he’s getting two paychecks. I’m sure he’ll get that itch again, but it’s gonna be a few years.

by bucnut1 on Oct 28, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or...they just pay Gruden and save money by not paying Morris.

This theory holds absolutely no weight whatsoever, sorry.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 28, 2009 5:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the Glazers wanted a year to groom Raheem as DC (2009) and then move him to HC in 2010

but they were afraid that another team would move him to DC in 09 with more money or HC and lose him They didn’t want to lose a guy who in their mind (not my opinion) could be the next Tomlin.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 28, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well in the next Tomlin to mean the next hot young defensive minded coach off the Kiffin tree to be successful, yeah I would agree.

Because no one should feel Morris is another Tomlin, they are very different in their mannerisms. I don’t get when people criticize Morris for being too close to his players when that is the whole advantage to having him!! Nothing says thats a bad way to lead. Not saying you do this, just saying this in general.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 28, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its a "grass is always greener on the other side" kind of thing

If a friendly coach is on a losing team, the critics say "Oh he’s way to easy and his team lacks discipline. If a strict coach is on a losing team, the critics say “Oh he’s way too tough on his players, there’s no way they’d want to play for a guy like him.” It’s like how it was when Coughlin arrived in New York and his team had yet to step on the field and how it is now with Mangini in Cleveland.

Things aren’t so simple that one method works better then the others.

by NewLogic on Oct 28, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Raheem is not

This ’player’s coach’ argument is stupidity. It shouldn’t even be a topic for discussion. If the Glazer’s hired Morris based on this then they are fools. What a team needs is a leader, motivator, and strategist. Raheem is none of these.

by higher on Oct 29, 2009 12:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs


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