WHEN IS ENOUGH , ENOUGH ?

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 11:47 AM EDT Comment 84 comments

As a Buc fan from practically day one, I have had enough, how about you? The Glazers should apologize to Tampa Bay for fielding an inferior product, and should take a step back and appreciate it is the people of Tampa Bay that made them their Buccaneer fortune. From day one it has been a shell game with the Glazers. At the onset they tried to peddle the Bucs to Orlando and various other cities after affirming that the Bucs would stay here. The citizens have been screwed from day one on the stadium deal, the insurance, the taxes, and not to mention the prices at the games. Who can afford to enjoy the game when you have to take out a second mortgage to buy a coke and a hot dog? Enough is enough !! Then they have the unmitigated gaul to ask the ciizenry to "Come to the stadium and support the Bucs" ! What a joke ! How about them supporting the people and fans of Tampa Bay ? Again I say, "Enough is enough" !!

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The problem is the Buccaneers didn't

make the Glazers their fortune. Rarely are NFL teams “good” investments, rather investments of status. Why would they apologize if they believe in what they are doing? I won’t get into the taxes levied on the folks of Tampa / St.Pete for the stadium. The sad truth is it is hard to find investors for arenas, therefor very rarely are stadiums built without the help of the taxpayers.

"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"

by UNFNOLE on Oct 22, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Investment??

When you can turn a 200 million dollar investment into approximately 800 million plus,,, I would say that is a pretty good return on your investment. Not to mention all the land perks, etc, they have also acquired, as in the practice facility, etc. And insofar as apologizing for what they “believe in”,,? There is only one thing they believe in,,, and that is called money. Remember the scam with the stock pricing of Zapata Corp when they bought the Bucs? The Bucs are strictly an investment, period. And finding an investor for the stadium? You seem to forget who owns the stadium? And for that fact, why are the Glazers entitled to the lion share of all events? Sad.

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They are entitled to it because they own the team, the same way I am entitled to my house or car.

If my house appreciates in value, who claims the riches? I do, if I own it. It’s no different than any other business.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't every NFL team

make a profit just from the T.V. money?

I was under the impression that teams are never operating in the red no matter how bad ticket sales are.

This would lead me to conclude that the Glazers are just being greedy in regard to high ticket prices, concessions etc.

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they paid 700 million for the team.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

for the Bucs? Wasn't it $192 million?

Boom. Outta Here.

by WillisDaddy on Oct 25, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, that's what the Glazers paid for the Buccos.

by bucnut1 on Oct 25, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes Im sorry, I was getting something mixed up, Not sure what, but something!

It was 192 Million. I think the current value is around 770 million? or that was a year or so ago….

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 26, 2009 5:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think this is very valid

It’s ok to be upset at the current product on the field, but where were the complaints in the early 200’s? When we won the Super Bowl? when we were in the playoffs? These prices didnt go up just this year. This is a league-wide issue I’d imagine (high price of beverages and refreshments) but no one said a word when we were winning.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Complaints,,,

Complaints about the Glazers and the way they treat Tampa Bay is nothing new. The shell game with them has gone on since day one. Where was the million they were suppose to pay for the old scoreboard? Another mystery. The prices at the stadium had escalted, as well as the ticket prices, every year, over and over. Of course if one chooses not to pay, that is their choice. But also remember, when we won the Superbowl, we had caliber players and coaches.

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does this happen with other NFL teams? Yes, so it isn't a Glazer issue. Prices will continue to go up in pretty much every sport because people still pay.

Prices are not correlated to the product on the field. There will be a time when the Bucs are good again, but these complaints that have beenaround apparently are not being voiced until now. No one complained last year until we missed the playoffs. The players we have compared to last year is not much different.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

From Forbes.com

Malcolm Glazer, who also owns soccer team Manchester United, the world’s most valuable sports franchise ($1.8 billion), charges an average ticket price of $72, one of the highest among teams that do not play in a big market.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/30/sportsmoney_nfl08_Tampa-Bay-Buccaneers_306470.html

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We have been an average franchise post Super Bowl. I have season tickets, I dont enjoy paying tons of money

and would prefer everything be free, but this is an issue with almost every sports franchise. Expensive tickets, refreshments and merchanside that prices out the middle income families. Im not saying raise ticket prices, but this is not a new development.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just saying

that if they are going to price out their fans then they needn’t bother complaining. Pendles has a point. Why should the fan base pay above average money for a below average product? It’s really just simple economics. The Bills suck, their tickets prices are the lowest in the league. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

I know what you are saying about this not being a new thing in sports, but the Glazers fail to realize the market they are in and are just being greedy IMO.

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is not a habitual thing though, the below average team that is.

The fan base chooses to pay it, it’s not obligated. Therefore, when you pay this money, you certainly have a venue to voice your opinion, but unless someone held a gun to your head, it ws your decision. I don’t like paying this much money, but it was my decision to do so. If I thought it was too high, I could take a stand and boycott.

So the Patriots and Colts would be justified in charging $100 a ticket (on average)? I don’t think prices are indicative of how a team is doing. It’s the market and bottom line that dictate it.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The best example I can give is if it's production based

why didn’t Rays tickets double or triple this year? They were successful last year. It’s supply and demand. Unfortunately, the demand for Rays tickets are low, thus an excess in supply which drives prices down. For bigger games (Yanks, Sox etc), demand is higher, supply is lower, higher prices.

For the Bucs game, demand is/was high, thus prices were high. I bet you see a difference this year. These things are generally reactionary and correct themselves after the fact. Ticket prices shouldnt go up much , if at all next year, but what if we put a Super Bowl run together in 2010. i dont think people will say “Man, prices are too low”

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the NFL would have to set the ticket prices,

and none of the owners would want that, and I wouldn’t either honestly. Our ticket prices are rather high, but they’re not the highest. And if they did set the prices, it would be from some kind of average and I’m pretty sure we’d (season ticket holders) get screwed.

The first year I had season tickets, I think I paid something like $90 for the year to sit in the north end zone (and I miss those peeps). Now I’m closer to $90 a game but I’m not gonna complain about it because I love going to the games. I know the risk of having a bad season, and the rewards of a winning season. Even with the deposit, I didn’t hesitate to pay it (I Got Mine), and I’m not gonna complain because my ticket cost goes up $2 a game.

by bucnut1 on Oct 22, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The bills play in a 30 year old plus stadium.

Raymond James is state of the art, and the Bucs are simply insisting their product is held to a premium standard, like Apple does.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What does this have to do with Manchester United?

I swear. You people really think that its logical for the Bucs and United to share accounting ledgers? For one, I’m pretty sure that ALL NFL teams have to be completely solvent to a degree. Two, the exchange rate is piss poor. Why would the Glazers use Buccaneer dollars to bolster an English soccer team? They’re losing money that way.

And, I should note, as one of the few here who actually follows the game, United have ZERO NEED for Buc charity. They are the most popular sports team in the universe. They win assloads of titles. They have an excellent manager who has proven, for two decades, to my chagrin, that he needs no hand holding or direction from ownership to build a champion. The idea that Joel and Brian are consumed with United is unbelievable. That team is a machine that runs itself. Is it in debt now? Yes. If any sports organization has a pissing chance of clawing itself out of debt, its United #1, Real Madrid #1B. The Bucs are bottom feeders comparatively. Our American dollars are not going to help pay for Ryan Giggs’ hair coloring. That contention has never and will never make sense.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Oct 22, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I Agree 100%

The united notion is getting old. All of these owners own multiple busineses.

by McBuc on Oct 22, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Manchester United is worth much more than the Bucs could ever dream.

by Suttree on Oct 22, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The books are separate

It’s just a matter that the Glazer’s cash in hand is being used to pay off the huge debt on Man U (if I understand correctly), thus their profits or take home on the Bucs is a little less in the end. So rather than put a ton of money into both, it would seem they have elected to do it to one for now. When the interest payments go down, this will cease.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But they aren't doing either. There was a huge furor in England when they banked the bulk of the Cristiano Ronaldo sale.

And, like I said earlier, there’s a misconception about how they’ve always operated in free agency. The Glazers have always believed in building through the draft and supplementing through free agency only when there will be a significant ROI. Like a Super Bowl title.

This Bucs squad isn’t close to justifying the expense.

Lead singer, songwriter, and caterer for the band Suicide Phoenix. We play sitar-based anthems on real estate law. Available for weddings, birthdays (13+, please), and LAN parties.

by PlayOnWords on Oct 22, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with their methodology on building a team.

The question I have (and perhaps it can’t be answered) is would the spending on the Bucs increase if Man U was out of the equation? I maintain that spending would be the same, but perhaps the opportunity would be more present than it is now.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Playon words,

It is going to pay for the interest payments the Glazers are being forced to make right now. But your points are valid.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Concession prices

Everyone should also remember that the concessions are run by Airmark. The people working each concession stand are volunteers from different organizations from the area, i.e. Lion’s Club’s, Youth Football, Boy Scouts, etc. A good portion of the proceeds from the concession goes to the group that sent the volunteers to work the stand. This is why I have no issue paying for the concessions. You must also take into consideration the cost of brining goods into the stadium is higher than your local bar’s is. Everything has gone up with the exception of salaries over the last few years. Check your power bill and water bill for starters. No one goes to a sporting event looking for a bargain, except minor league baseball games of course. I understand your frustration, but the team will get better. They seem to be looking to the future which will pay off big down the road.

Remember that the people wroking the stands are taking time out of their lives to help a good cause. Please be nice to these people. I have done this, and you guys would not beleive how rude people are when you are serving pizza and beer to them at a football game. One even called me an f’n minimum wage employee, because I would not fill his giant coke cup with beer. Sorry for the rant. GO BUCS!

by McBuc on Oct 22, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I get free soda refills, no complaints here. :)

by bucnut1 on Oct 22, 2009 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Question

I saw in 2008 we had the second highest average ticket price, behind the Pats. Does that include our large club seat area in the average? I believe it had the ticket price average at $90 and change. I tend to only go to one game a year; I am legally blind and like to watch the game on TV. I like to go to one game for the atmosphere. I have not paid for the ticket in a long time, thanks to a good friend who has an extra season ticket. My question is…does the club seating drive up the average? What is the price of a seat in the common area?

by McBuc on Oct 22, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Totally Agree,,,,,

And my hat goes off to all the volunteers who work long hours for basically no pay and generally no appreciation. But what bothers me is that the Glazers treat the stadium as their private domain and generate monies from the USF Bulls games and any other venue that is presented there. Remember when they wanted total control of the Tampa Sports Authority ? The stadium was given away by a poorly qualified representative of Tampa and it’s politicians. Unfortunately the Glazers are just taking advantage of the scenario we , the citizens, created. But it still doesn’t make it right. The big money is from the TV rights and that is why to guarantee a sell out, the Bucs gave away 10,000 tickets last week at McDill. The Glazers do nothing from their heart, only if it is beneficial to them financially. Sad, but at this point, we have to grin and bear it, we allowed it to happen.

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

One day at the Stadium, Joel glazer upgrade my seat from a corner end zone to 50 yard line Club seat. I have the ticket to prove it,,,

and I assure you I did not spend 575.00 on that ticket.

Since that day, I will never call the Glazers cheap.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Super,,,,,,,,,

It is nice to hear that Mr. Glazer did something for you. How about the season ticketholders, having tickets, from day one, that when the Bucs “readjusted” the seating, went from fifty yard line seats, that they had for over twenty years, to seats on the five yard line and at the top of the stadium? Do you call that fan appreciation ?

by pendles on Oct 23, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My relocation

from the old stadium to the new was pretty accurate, if not better. Not saying others didn’t get screwed, but I and my friends didn’t.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One does not lead to another.

There were plenty of club seats available for anyone with excellent seats in the old stadium to get into. The fact is, with pricing the way it was, people just couldnt afford the same value of ticket. The personal Seat license was not a Glazer creation. All of the newer state of the art Stadiums have similar plans. Season tickets at new stadiums is no longer a thing for the average person to do…But that is not exclusive to Tampa Bay or the Glazers.

And I AM the average fan in this story.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also,,, how about Loyalty??

Why is it when season tickets , etc, tanked, no one from the Bucs offered to ‘upgrade’ anyone for a minimal amount? Season ticket holders with ‘deposits’ were given no consideration at all. The Bucs offered ‘financing’ with no deposits to generate new sales, but what about all us chumps that have been there for years and still have the deposit with the Bucs? They come up with the season pass instead of printed tickets which only saved them money and made it more difficult for a ticket holder to sell their tickets circumvent of their venue, which they also make money from. Funny how they soon they forget? They want the fans to be “Loyal” and come support the Bucs,,, but where is their loyalty to the fans? Short memories on their part. Wonder if the Manchester fans feel the same way?

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You're obciously NOT a season ticket holder

because you would know that we (the season ticket holders) can print out or email our tickets when and to whomever we choose. Did you even vote for the 1/2 penny sales tax that also goes to other community projects? You’re just fussing to fuss, because the Bucs do pay rent, the city/county do profit off the Bucs, and the Bucs do a lot more good than you realize, cause they’d be sorely missed if they weren’t here.

by bucnut1 on Oct 22, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Season ticket holder,,,

Yes,, and we went one further. If you ask, you can go to One Buc Place and have your tickets made up unlike the printed ones from your computer. If you want to give or sell your tickets, anyone can print up anything, but the tickets we requested , are legit Bucs tickets. You don’t have to accept the email version or whatever. The county does profit to some degree, but does it outweigh the expense such as taxes, insurance, etc, etc, for the stadium? I agree the Bucs have some local value and everyone loves a winner , but, what is wrong with expressing your disapproval of the way things are being done? And the concept that Bucaneer money isn’t going to fund the Manchester effort is just foolish. Granted they are businessmen and their business is making money, either here or in England.

by pendles on Oct 22, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a season ticket holder and I have real actual tickets, not a card, not anything else and I elected none of this

it saved some money and was more convenient for people.

What about when the new stadium and area brought the Super Bowl to Tampa. Who profits from that? Everyone (meaning the Glazers, the city, local establishments etc). Having a team is a win-win-win (Thank you Michael Scott) for everyone.

The Glazers indeed have two businesses. They have certain obligations from both. If they put more money into the Bucs, it would cut down their profits. They are required, due to their financing deal with Man U to pay abnormally large interest payments. It’s the same money, but it’s not.

Imagine you have 20 dollars and you owe money on a car and a bike. You have to pay off the bike’s interest first, which is high, which means you have less money to upgrade the car. THe car doesnt get left in the dust, nor is the car money going directly to the bike or vice versa, but it all generates from the same place.

That was dumb.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really feel your crying about something like Damn Disney World, the avg family cant go anymore...

well dont go!

If I want to go to a game, I save up some money and I go. It was always expensive. I dont remember being able to afford 4 tickets and 4 cokes when they were 15 dollars a seat back in 82 either!! Its always been expensive. Whats NEW???

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Missing the point,,,,,,,,,,,

It is not just about the price of cokes and hot dogs,,,, It is about the hosing the citizens of Hillsborough County must endure over and over. The Glazers want to control all at the stadium, yet they do not own it. If owndership is what they want, let them build their own stadium like Jerry Jones of the Cowboys. They, the Glazers, are part time tenants, nothing more, nothing less. The just live by the creed “Spend no dime before it’s time”,,, and usually don’t unless they have to. It is just time for the people of Tampa and Hillsborough County to stop paying for the Glazers. Let them pick up their own tab for once.

by pendles on Oct 23, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will not debate an issue that is now 15+ years old and voted in by the community.

The voters went out and approved the referendum. They were smart enough to realize that having the team here was far better than losing it. The Glazers made good on their end of the bargain, and gave us a competitive product, 4 division championships, multiple playoff games and a SuperBowl championship in return.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They are the main tenant of the building, and it’s no different than you renting your house and running a business out of it other than it’s public land/property.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You've done all this complaining but have made no suggestions or offered any solutions

What do you want done? If you don’t want to pay $6 bucks or whatever it is for a beer than either don’t go the game or tailgate and bring your own.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 23, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No I think were supposed to stop watching our favorite team, dont go to the games,

and show them we wont be pushed around.
I pay Pinellas County Taxes. I dont know the deal but I probably own a baseball dome or something!

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care if he complains, but I don't know what he wants out of it.

State a case. I understand beers are expensive and their nasty chicken fingers are over priced, but what do you want? Cheaper tickets? Not happening this year. Cheaper Beer? never happening. The team to be moved? I’ll pass. The Glazers to sell? To whom and what if they are worse?

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by Buc Wild on Oct 23, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the obvious points being missed is one, that this is a for-profit business

not a charity. Again, I would rather not pay as much, but I don’t think it’s being understood that this is a business much like Ford, Sony, McDonald’s etc. Cheeseburgers at McD’s used to be 49 cents, they are now 79 cents. Prices go up,c ost of living goes up.

Additionally, each team in the NFL runs a business for profit. This is an investment to them. They do give back and they do solicit fan opinions, but I don’t expect them to turn away from profits any more than I do some of there businesses out there.

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by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

lol u mad

Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.

by P Brady on Oct 22, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Plus they like futball more than football, that's unamerican sirs.

Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.

by P Brady on Oct 22, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hats off to PoW and EF for reason and logic.

by Suttree on Oct 22, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You ready to compare those

Johnson and Leftwich numbers yet Suttree?

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see how it's a relevant discussion?

by Suttree on Oct 22, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We said three games for Johnson

then it would be a fair comparison. Just seeing if you’ve come around to my point of view or if you contend Johnson is better.

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Johnson has played more the Lefty, and his stats aren’t as good as Lefty’s. There’s no point of Johnson even being in there, Freeman needs to be thrown to the wolves or put Lefty back in.

by bucnut1 on Oct 22, 2009 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 22, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was never my point.

Leftwich wasn’t going to provide the team an opportunity to win and they weren’t going to go anywhere with him. Johnson’s upside is worth exploring without crushing Josh Freeman’s development. If Josh cuts down on his bad decisions, he’s going to be a good quarterback.

Did you really want to see Leftwich play against the Eagles? He’s a decent quarterback, but only in a situation where he has the secondary personnel (i.e. tight ends who can block) to keep him upright.

by Suttree on Oct 23, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then why did they bring him in? Why were they saying Lefty’s the leader? We would have won a game by now if Lefty was still playing. And yeah, I’d of rather had him in for the Eagles game. Have you even compared their stats? Not even close, and it would be nice if Johnson would have a 100+ game throwing by now. Johnson’s best game was against NY, 1) they already replacement players in 2) they had no idea who this guy was and had no way of prepping from him. And since Johnson will return to a career backup after this season anyway, there’s no point of playing him. I’d rather see Lefty in there and be competitive, or Freeman so he can learn and grow so we can have more hope for next year. Everybody here loved Scott Milanovich, that worked out well didn’t it?

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1) They brought him in a place holder for Josh Freeman next year and because they thought they might win 6-7 games with Leftwich.

2) Yes, we might have won the Washington game with Leftwich. So we would be 1-5 instead of 0-6.

3) Johnson has improved with every game. It hasn’t shown up in his traditional stats yet, but his accuracy is certainly of NFL caliber, his decision making when electing to scramble has improved. His decision making has to improve for him to take the next step. And if you don’t believe it’s valuable developing a young, talented quarterback – even if his role is going to be as a back up – instead of continuing to lose with a veteran who won’t be here in a year, I don’t know what to ell you. We aren’t losing games because of quarterback play – we are losing games because we have the worst defense in the league.

4) Throwing Freeman into a situation where he will get minimal protection, limited offense weapons, and constantly be throwing the ball because his defense can’t keep the game close is not good. Look at Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, Phillip Rivers, Matt Ryan… all these quarterbacks were put into good positions to succeed. Freeman all ready has a problem with turnovers and decision making at the college level – in order to eradicate that problem, you have to put him in position to succeed. This current Bucs offense will not do that – particularly not against teams like the Eagles and now the Patriots.

by Suttree on Oct 23, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Leftwich was brought in to be a place holder?

or are you talking about JJ who was brought in by Grudens group?

Defense is the biggest problem, every single game has been winnable. Lefty is not my first choice of QB FA out there, but we got him, nothing we can do about it. BUT, he is the best QB on the roster and provides the best chance to win. It’s about winning and losing, not about developing career backups. We’re not winning because of QB play either. I don’t see any improvement in JJ really, he holds the ball too long, he throws bad INT’s, and I always, on almost every single play see a wide open receiver waiving their hands for the ball but JJ doesn’t see it. His QB rating is 58.9, only completes 54.5% of his passes (not all his fault), averages 105.8 yards a game (pathetic), 10 sacks, and 7 fumbles. That wouldn’t cut it for any other team, even the Lions, Rams, or any other bad team.

This is probably the best 0-line we have ever had here, and we’ve had some really, really bad ones too. This is gonna be for the most part the same 0-line Freeman will play with when he starts. Lefty only had 2 sacks, which for a slow guy like him isn’t too bad. If Freeman’s not ready, then he shouldn’t be here. It’s a long road of learning for him either way, might as well get him started on it or give us the best chance to win.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Forgot

3 TD’s and 5 INT’s.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

1) Yes, Leftwich was brought in to be a place holder. I think everyone is fairly aware of this.

2) Doug Williams and Mark Domenick were heavily involved with the drafting of Josh Johnson and Raheem Morris has all ready established that he wants Johnson to stick around as backup. So, I’m not sure what your point is.

3) When the difference between one quarterback and another is a single win, then it’s complete and utter noise. It doesn’t matter. It was obvious Leftwich wasn’t going to be the difference between making the playoffs and sitting at home, so the coaching staff/front office made a decision that would benefit with the future.

4) You are correct, Leftwich performed better than Josh has to this point. You are wrong in the sense that he hasn’t improved – he has. Despite the completion percentage, his accuracy is exceptionally good. His scrambling was haywire at first and there’s no question he has missed receivers, but he’s gotten better every game. Against the Panthers, he ran 8 times, only 2 of which you could argue were hurried decisions. He made two bad decisions with the football against the Panthers – both of the same variety, trying to squeeze the ball between a safety and underneath man, which is a concern. The fumbles are a concern, but again, we don’t have a large enough sample size to say,“This guy has no future.” You have to remember, players like Trent Dilfer and Kyle Orton have all had bad streaks – even bad seasons – before turning out to be very solid quarterbacks. If he can cut down on the bad decisions, he’s going to be an effective NFL quarterback. I figure he has until the Green Bay game to prove he’s capable of doing that and I’m excited to see what happens. If he doesn’t, then it will be Freeman’s turn and we will be enjoying this train all over again.

by Suttree on Oct 23, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Considiering you believe Dilfer had a solid career

there’s no point talking to a wall.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The man had three good years as a starting quaterback and won an NFL ring.

No, he was never elite nor did he ever have sustained success, but to pretend he wasn’t a good borderline starting quarterback is silly.

by Suttree on Oct 24, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This

J.J LOVE SPREADS while RAHEEM MORRIS'S PLAN FOR NFLDOMINECION IS COMING TO AN END.

by Some other guy who does not care on Oct 24, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hit Bucfanlostiniowa's response.

While I don’t agree with the usage of retard, I don’t see a whole lot of condescension on anyone’s part. While they may not agree, PlayonWords, EminenceFront and LeeCaz were discussing matters. There were facts and ideas involved.

There is no reason to bring a Buc Em vs DraysBay tone to this argument.

This is a situation (in my opinion) where the facts being brought up and used to support arguments is a good idea. You dont have to be happy with the Glazers and their spending, or their ownership of Man U, but to wildly state that they dont care about fans or people and to suggest that the Bucs prices are out of line with the NFL is factually incorrect.

The Buccaneers are a business. They are owned as a business and operated as such. If you do not like their product, feel free to take your money elsewhere. You can voice your opinion here all you want, but when facts are presented, perhaps it is better to take a second, read what is laid out in front of you and mull it over than to continue on assuming you are correct. There is nothing wrong with a friendly, casual debate that leads to an exchange of ideas and people walking away more informed than they entered.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Damnit, hit in the title should be hid

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come on guys

I can go to TBO to read an argument filled with insults. I like this site because everyone seems to have opinions, but they do not beat each other up for a differing opinion. All the name calling and such is for those yahoos at TBO. This site is for football talk, which is almost like talking about religion or politics. At least when your team is loosing. When they are winning it is all peachy.

by McBuc on Oct 22, 2009 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Let's also keep in mind that the Bucs enjoyed a pretty good run, from the late 90's through early 2000's and a few years thereafter

There is always a time to blow it up and rebuild. The team is in a rebuilding mode. If you want season tickets, I suggest getting on the list, if there is one, right now. The team will come back. Growing up you could walk to the stadium and get tickets for a low price the day of the game when the Bucs were awful. Then the waiting list grew as the team got better. It was a hot item in town. WIth the team cooling off and the band wagon fans jumping off, it creates an opportunity for people who want to see the Bucs.

Prices aren’t out of control. They are inline with other NFL teams and considering our market, are pretty fair. It takes a leap of faith to buy into the vision that the Glazers have, and it may be painful in the short run, but Id much prefer 10 years of excellence, followed by 3 years of rebuilding than perpetual rebuilding to the tune of the Redskins who just spend money to spend it.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I dont recall the Glazers ever trying to move the team to Orlando, that was Culverhouse, get your facts straight...

Then, go to another stadium, and tell me where you will find 1.95 cokes.
Its expensive at any ballpark, baseball, football, or whatever.

Least valid post ive seen on the fanpost so far.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cleveland Buccaneers

was what the threat was.

by bucnut1 on Oct 22, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Facts,,,,,,,,,

My facts are straight. Initially after purchasing the Bucs from the Culverhouse family , the Glazers went on local TV and expounded how the Bucs were here to stay. Shortly thereafter it came out that the Glazers had been in contact with factions in Orlando and Orange County to sell the Bucs. Problem was there is a NFL transfer fee plus a penalty fee that had to be paid to the Culverhouse family if the Bucs were moved in the first five years. If memory is correct, it was about 35 million in fees, and naturally the Glazers wanted Orlando to pick up the expense. They also courted moving the team west , but again the same issue, no one wanted to pay their expense for them. So, my facts are straight. Finally with the usual two faced approach, the Glazers came to the people to explain how this “misunderstanding” of trying to sell the Bucs had occurred. And thus the Glazer shell game began.

by pendles on Oct 23, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Facts...in a time when..

Los Angeles
Cleveland
Houston, all far larger markets than Tampa Bay, all lost their NFL teams, Tampa Bay kept theirs. Its a testament to the fans, the community, and the ownership group for making it happen. The Glazers came and said the team was here to stay. They also said ….IF a new stadium was approved, because there was no way the team could be profitable at that old stadium. They were quite clear on that, I remember it, You can google search old St. Pete Times articles too.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Was there a time limit on the reloctation fee? I don't remember there being one,

but I’m not sure.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dont remember it being an issue.

I remember a basic, we bought the team, we want to keep it here if you build us a stadium. That was a given. The Glazers paid a record sum at the time. For them to be profitable, a new stadium with club seats and all the new frills was needed. Jerry Angelos wanted to buy the team and said straight up he was moving it to Baltimore. No tax, no nothing. I guess his honesty makes him a saint?

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well I knew the trust wasn’t gonna sell the team to somebody who wanted to relocate the team. I even think the relocation fee had no time limit on it, but I could be mistaken.

I do remember the rumor of them going to Cleveland if the vote didn’t go through. I lived in Pinellas at the time, but live in Hillsborough now, and I have no problem paying the tax.

by bucnut1 on Oct 23, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I took out the source of this, which was very informative, but you had to add insults at the end...so Im going to put the facts back on this thread, because they BELONG here..

The Glazers, the man pointed out, have these charitable events…
The Glazer Children’s Museum,
The GFF Grant Program,
The GFF Vision Program,
Youth with Promise,
Bucs-Packs for Back-to-School,
Cheering You On,
Make Reading Your Goal,
Enterprise Village,
Holliday Shopping Spree,
Tampa Bay Sports Comission,
Toys for Tots,
Sack Hunger
Teaching Tools for Hillsborough Schools

This is where the Glazers money goes to..

Now, anyone who comes back in this thread and starts name calling again, you will be banned, as this is your warning.

I think this post is the stupidest thing Ive ever read in my life. But Thats my opinion. I will call the post stupid, but not the Post-ee!

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 22, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is where the Glazers money goes to..

Really, if anything, its where the ticket sales and merchandise profits go to.

Officially now the head of the Lobstein bandwagon.

by P Brady on Oct 22, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holy geez

there were like 88 comments on here when I left earlier.

Dang.

by LeeCaz on Oct 22, 2009 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I need to start making stories more like this post.

50 + comments for this.

"I have come that you may have life, and life to the max"

by UNFNOLE on Oct 22, 2009 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can you hop on Gmail chat real fast.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 22, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My post about owner ranking

It seems to be gone, or I did something wrong. The Galziers are great owners, and were ranked number 9. Google NFL owner ranking 2009 to read why, and make sure to look at all the other teams to see how bad other fans have it.

by McBuc on Oct 23, 2009 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You didn't do anything wrong

One of the other moderators deleted some other comments and it was caught up in the wash.

www.bucem.com - SBNation's source for all things Buccaneer

by Buc Wild on Oct 23, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry about that....

You didnt do anything wrong. I deleted person to person attack comments, and Im learning that comments nested underneath deleted comments get deleted too.

I Will try to see what may fall first before deliberating whether or not to delete anything in the future.

If anyone can get production out of Gaines Adams, it will be Rod Marinelli. Good Luck Gaines and thank you Bucs for restoring my confidence that there is accountability.

by Niko Houllis on Oct 23, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs