A Tale of Two Cities
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 5:54 PM EDT
48 comments
Last year two cities, two football teams with similar records,two Superbowl winning coaches, two similar paths. Both coaches were fired, two rookie coaches were hired to replace them. New coaches, new staffs, new personal, new directions. Before the season even began one city was ready two crucify their new coach for trading the franchise quarterback, while the other were falling all over themselves for their young coach and his "youth movement".Now here we are one is 0-5 and the other is 5-0.Why?What happened? How did it all go so wrong for one and so right for the other?Was one team really that much better than the other and therefore easier for the rookie coach to turn it around?Was one coach that much better, was it luck, or a little bit of both?All i can say is the sun is shinning in one city while the other endures what could could be a long sad sunset on a once proud franchise.
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Well, Denver had defensive Linemen drafted by our own Jim Bates who seem to now be coming into their own...
Kyle Orton is a veteran QB who does not make errors, and thus better than what we have. With 8 or 9 good players, I can see the same thing happening here.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 12, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was
going to mention the Bates connection, and the fact that Cutler almost ended up here, but decided not too. i know it’s not much of a fanpost but i wanted to do something a little different than “raheem sucks!” Even with the better players do you really think he can get ti done as a coach?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think another big part of our record
is that we have already played the whole NFC East, which is top to bottom the best division in the NFL. We had a chance to beat Washington and Buffalo, but realistically I don’t think anyone expected this team to be better than 2-3 at this point.
Our schedule doesn’t get any easier. Please Lord let us beat Carolina next week. If they put a stomping on us it is very likely going to be a winless season.
Denver has impressed me quite a bit. Hopefully we can steal Brandon Marshall away from them in the offseason so we don’t have to worry about WR and can draft defense, defense, defense!
by LeeCaz on Oct 12, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree, I think our schedule gets easier finally.
Two games vs Carolina
Green Bay at home,
and Seattle…four shots at a win…not counting an upset somewhere along the line. 0-16 alert should not really go into effect until Dec 6th. After that…..
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, keep in mind that Atlanta could have wrapped up a playoff spot
by week 17, so they could be playing their scrubs at RayJay.
Cannons... fire them.
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by Craig T on Oct 13, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will definetly go with a scrub win......
Carolina will run for 300 yds
Aaron Rodgers will throw for 300
Hasselback will throw for 300
only win will be against the scrubs…..agreed
by buccanator on Oct 13, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The talent level is DRASTICALLY different in these two cities. That's a big reason it's been this way so far.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 6:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
last year
the bucs were 9-7 broncos 8-8 are you saying that the broncos improved that much personal wise in a year or the bucs talent level dropped that much which is it?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are many ways to respond to this
First, I dont think the Bucs were a true 9 win team last season. We had an easy schedule and barely beat Chi, Det, and KC. Second, the Broncos got rid of a locker room idiot (Cutler), and became a defensive team that can pressure. The talent that Denver has and kept versus what the Bucs have and kept is wildly different.
I can name probably 8 players off the top of my head that I would take over who we have. Who would the Broncos take from our squad this year?
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so
Mcdaniels just had to cancel Cutler, plug in Orton and go with the players he had.While Morriss inherited a team of lackluster talent? Shouldn’t he and Dominak have made better moves in free agency and the draft. are you saying that McDaniels had it easier?These teams were pretty even last year to be so far apart now dont you think?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year means nothing in terms of this year
But who would the Bucs take from the Broncos? I’m guessing off the top of my head, Marshall, Royal, Moreno, Clady, Hillis, Champ, Elvis, D.J. and B-dawk. Who would the Broncos take from us? Maybe Caddy or Ward, maybe Joseph, Faine (who hasbeen hurt) and Ruud. Thats probably it. Big disparity in talent. There schemes have been in place. I’m not sure what, if anything, they changed defensively, but they have the luxury of having Champ back there. They went through there changes years ago.
Dominik tried to pursue in free agency, but didn’t land anyone. The focus for the most part is on young talent. Not a lot of young cheap talent in free agency that will bolster a roster. Draft picks is how you build a team.
How were they even last year? and how does that translate to this year?
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, who is running the defense? who is running the offense?
The coordinators they brought in and the talent level of those guys play a big part in the team.
The DC is Mike Nolan, a noted defensive mind. The OC is McCoy with McDaniels helping out (he was the OC in New England after all). Talent, coaching, opponents, all play big parts. They got a lucky bounce in week 1, played the Browns in week 2, Raiders in Week 3, and needed two comebacks to win week 4 and 5.
They got the job done, hats off to them, but strength of schedule is easier for them and they are doing it with defense. When you hold teams to 10-14 points, it just takes one break going your way to swing a game. When you give up 30+ in 3 games, you aint gonna win much.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does last year have to do with it?
It has everything to do with it two teams with nearly the same record both fired their head coaches and headed in new directions one failed and one succeeded that’s how it translates
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did they play the same opponents? Were there injuries? when were coaches hired? what new schemes were put in?
how did the teams finish? how did they start? Last year means nothing when looking at this year.
By this logic, Tony Sparano, should be fired, Brad Childress should be given a raise, as should Marvin Lewis. They took bad teams and are good so far.
Teams play different teams with different personnel and situations, so comparing last years Week 3 game to this years wweek 3 game or last year for two different teams doesnt work.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sparano childress and lewis
are not rookie head coaches so what do they have to do with this?I’m comparing the broncos and the bucs they played the cowboys and won we lost they played the patriots and won do you think we will?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you switched Morris with any other head coach, do you think the team Morris coached would be 0-5?
How do you think other coaches would have done here with the same personnel? Maybe a win, but thats about it. Its the talent level that is dragging the Bucs down. The same can be said for the Rams and Raiders. Coaching plays into it but if we swapped Morris for Shanahan or Cowher or Payton or any other good coach (keeping the same players), their record would be awful as well.
That tells me its not coaching. Morris isnt doing himself any favors, but if you put him with the Patriots, Colts, or other talented teams, they’d be fine.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
new coach changes everything
different staff different players different draft picks different system everything would have been different with a different coach maybe worse (doubtful) maybe better.
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dominik picks the players, he and Raheem select the coaches (and I find it hard to believe the Glazers have no input)
WIth the players Dominik kept, let go or hired on, do you think another head coach would have made this team better? Im not askingabout new personnel, just a new head coach with existing personnel.
I have always said, this is a group fail. Morris absolutely deserves some blame, but so do people that no one mentions. I.E. the players, the DC, OC, GM etc.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly the players. Players are not making plays, when they do we will win.
Clayton needs to do his job. AB, his job. Elbert Mack needs to do his job. Gaines Adams needs to do his job. If these guys and more make plays like the other teams players do, were not even talking about this.
Thats not coaching. Thats players not making plays.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all of the above need to go
and be replaced with players that want to put some effort into the game. I still don’t like Bates.
by buccanator on Oct 13, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You always act like Morris
has no input on personnel decisions. Although Dominik makes the ultimate decision, Raheem has most likely been asked for his input along the way, and any GM is going to try to use the coaches input for his personnel decisions. If he doesn’t then he isn’t doing his job very well. Sure, coaches can have bad ideas, and it is a GM’s responsibility to overrule them and stick with his vision of the team.
No GM simply says to the head coach “Hey these are the guys you have to work with, so make them work”. It’s easy to lay all the blame at the feet of Dominik for personnel decisions, but in reality both men have a say in who comes and who goes.
by LeeCaz on Oct 14, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
everytime morris
is attacked he is quickly defended that it is the players fault not his somehow throwing all the blame on dominik why do you think that is?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 14, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you name a
team that didnt change personnel when there was a coaching change (unless it was a coach promoted from inside the existing organization) If somebody else was the coach do you think we would have the team we have now?!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We did change personnel (Brooks, Dunn, Hilliard, Ward, Winslow etc)
so its not like we stood pat. The Jets made a few moves, probably less than us. Every team makes moves when changing coaches, but its not major. Tomlin inherited a great team. Spags didn’t. Norv Turner did, Morris didnt.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think our team would be relatively the same to be honest.
I think the schemes might have differed, but the old players were being let go most likely regardless of who came on. We probably dont trade for Winslow and we dont draft Freeman, but its not like we stood pat.
IN: Ward, Winslow, Clayton (not counting draft picks)
OUT: Brooks, Dunn, Hilliard, June, Buchanon, Garcia, Alex Smith, Kevin Carter.
We made moves (whether we agree with them or not is another story).
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If macdaniels was bucs coach
who would be quarterback. Mcown?
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No idea
I have no idea what McDaniels wants in a QB. It could be McCown, but my guess is Cassel since he tried to get Cassel in Denver.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
we’ll never know what could have been if the glazers had cared a little more
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
morris was given an average team to build upon. He elected to go with his own college coaching ideals and failed
the mart man
by martymar on Oct 15, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was not an average team.
This was below average talent from the start and we knew that. What college ideas has he gone with? If we call him a failure, isnt Olsen, Bates, Dominik, the Glazers, and everyone affiliated a failure also?
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by Buc Wild on Oct 15, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your point BFLii,
I just think ONLY the record of the teams was even. The talent level was very different. Any talent we had last year were of aging veterans, who are gone, either by choice or by performance.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im fully on Buc Wild's side on this one.
Look the post is good. Nothing wrong with having an opinion.
But Denver has much more talent, and young talent that is growing up, or has been growing up for the last couple of years.
We didnt cut talent. We cut players that were staying on the field past their time. We let players go who were just too old to play anymore. And these players, Galloway, Hilliard, Dunn, and even Brooks, are all still unsigned, or like Galloway, not producing.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
jim bates may of drafted the defensive lineman..
but they never succeeded under his defensive philosophy. they also drafted a rookie DE this year with there first round pick ! we need to have our corners looking at the quarterback not with there backs to them!
by the420bucsfan on Oct 12, 2009 8:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont know the details, there was a broncos fan who filled us in, but Shanahan removed him midseason and put someone else incharge of the Defense.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I am trying to say is
it didnt have to be this way.New coach new staff new players new system does not have to=losing season.This whole thing falls on the owners Moriss is what he is like him or hate him it is the glazers who put him there.They are the ones who shouldd have shopped around for a better coach
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont disagree.
The issue is, the Glazers still have to pay Gruden and with their relative frugality, they needed a cheap hire. Money played into it. They also didnt want to miss out on the next Tomlin. The rest is history.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 12, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who lied to them
and said he was the next Tomlin. That guy is a hell of a salesman!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the broncos owner
did a better job than the glazers McDaniels is the evil genius that gruden was supposed to be!
by bucfanlostiniowa on Oct 12, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so sure Morris was that cheap.
I seem to remember 1 Million a year, but I cant find his salary anywhere. Maybe you will have better luck.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the next Tomlin?
Now that has to be the funniest thing anyone has said……“the next Tomlin” PLEASE!!!
the mart man
by martymar on Oct 15, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do understand the similarities dont you?
Both guys came up on the Cover 2, worked there way up on the defensive side. Both are young, african american guys who love football. The Glazers watched one of them run off and win a Super Bowl. I never said Morris was the next Tomlin, but the similarities are there and the Glazers didnt want to have another prodigy plucked from under their nose.
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by Buc Wild on Oct 15, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buc wild
is right, Our defensive personnel looks better for a Cover 2 scheme than man to man- Think about it- almost everyone of these turnovers were because of a someone playing zone in the back.
J.J LOVE SPREADS while RAHEEM MORRIS'S PLAN FOR NFLDOMINECION IS COMING TO AN END.
by Some other guy who does not care on Oct 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Denver
Seems to have far better play calling (coaching) as well as a much better QB. 2 very vital components which are needed to win.
"In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to It." - Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant
by Tye on Oct 13, 2009 8:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, a more EXPERIENCED QB that is certain..
as for play calling, again, outside of the stupid option plays, play calling is subjective. If a play gets you a 1st down, it was a great play. 3rd and 2 fails, it was a dumb play. That pretty much never changes.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 13, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, better play calling is a result of the play.
3rd and 2. Pass or run?
If you run and make it? good call. Pass and fail? Why didnt you run. Bad call.
Eagles by 17= The Bucs are what we think they are. Eagles by 10? Respectable. Eagle by<7? A moral victory. Bucs win? See you at the airport!
by Niko Houllis on Oct 15, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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